Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are not talking enough about how this episode made me lost any empathy I ever had for Roman. He was just a reprehensible MAGA twat.

So true! He always had a " too cool for school" vibe only to be exposed as a depraved/ conniving MAGA worm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally saw this episode as a possible foreshadowing of 2024 and it made me sick. I was down all night.

I agree. I found it very sickening to watch.

I agree. It was disaster porn and lazy writing.

+1. Succession has gone from a delightfully cynical take on corporate America to preachy political message fiction with an After School Special level of writing nuance, and all the ominous music and pensive close ups don’t really make up for the crude and simplistic storyline.

+2
Completely agree with both PPs. I thought this was the worst episode yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

You criticize those of us who have suggested Shiv will abort, and then you suggest that it's quite possible she aborts.

I criticized people making up things about reasons she had an amino - to give her a reason to abort- and saying “she was sitting in the conference room about to call and schedule an abortion when Tom walked in”, absolutely. Because it was made up.

Except that you don't know that, any more than the rest of us do. Posters are taking free rein, making up what THEY think will happen in this series, or how THEY interpreted a scene. That is one interpretation of Shiv's scene, alone in the conference room. That perhaps she was going to call her OB and schedule an abortion, when Tom walks in and is especially sweet and kind to her in that moment. So perhaps she reconsiders the abortion. This is all a theory - just like the numerous other theories posited on this thread.

As for the amnio, I was one of the posters who was saying she just had a routine amnio, as many of us "advanced maternal aged" moms have had (35+). I made no sinister reference as to why she had the amnio, unlike some other posters (I've had three of my own, all routine). However, I find it very plausible that Shiv did not want this baby - she knows she'd be a terrible mom, her own mother said as much to her, and now Tom has as well. What better way to "shiv" Tom than to abort his (much wanted) baby and then tell him she has done so.

Now tell us about some of your made-up theories so we can criticize them and tell you how wrong you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are not talking enough about how this episode made me lost any empathy I ever had for Roman. He was just a reprehensible MAGA twat.

Yep. And every one under estimates him. But he just changed the course of history, democracy.

Delusions of grandeur.

[Anonymous]

I agree that a Siv abortion, while possible, is not very likely. Maybe instead she will end up getting injured in some sort of political violence brought on by the contested election and that will cause a miscarriage. Then she can blame her brothers for killing her baby. That would take care of the pregnancy and stay on the theme of the Roy children creating havoc in the country.

[Anonymous]

Thinking about Shiv's pregnancy, I'm just thinking about how it's kind of interesting to me to watch a billionaire heiress struggle with a pregnancy because for me, it's impossible to separate the decision of whether or not to have a baby from money. Like even a reasonably well off professional woman in the same situation (say, a lawyer or doctor -- financially secure but has to work for a living) would be factoring in money as a major issue -- can she afford to raise the baby on her own if her marriage falls apart? if her spouse is a lower earner, can she afford to pay support to him if they split? Even just basic things like can she make it work with childcare while she continues to work full time. For a woman who is MC or working class instead of UMC, there would be a question of whether she could even afford to split from her spouse, even if the marriage was messed up and there was no love left, because in that situation she might not be able to afford childcare on her own and she might not be able to get support from her ex if they split. Money would just be central to the whole thing.

So it's kind of fascinating to me to look at this situation with Shiv and it's really just about what she wants. That's it. Doe she want to stay married to Tom? If not, she can divorce him and it impacts her ability to support a baby not at all. She can even pay him hefty spousal support and she's still be fine -- she's a billionaire. Her brother just blew like a billion dollars on a vanity run for president. She can work or not work if she has the baby. She can pay for the best nannies money can buy or she could just stop working and play mommy or she can do both. She can do whatever she wants.

And she's still miserable and the situation still sucks. It's crazy! All that money and they can't figure out a way to just have a kid and be a happy family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

You criticize those of us who have suggested Shiv will abort, and then you suggest that it's quite possible she aborts.

I criticized people making up things about reasons she had an amino - to give her a reason to abort- and saying “she was sitting in the conference room about to call and schedule an abortion when Tom walked in”, absolutely. Because it was made up.

Except that you don't know that, any more than the rest of us do. Posters are taking free rein, making up what THEY think will happen in this series, or how THEY interpreted a scene. That is one interpretation of Shiv's scene, alone in the conference room. That perhaps she was going to call her OB and schedule an abortion, when Tom walks in and is especially sweet and kind to her in that moment. So perhaps she reconsiders the abortion. This is all a theory - just like the numerous other theories posited on this thread.

As for the amnio, I was one of the posters who was saying she just had a routine amnio, as many of us "advanced maternal aged" moms have had (35+). I made no sinister reference as to why she had the amnio, unlike some other posters (I've had three of my own, all routine). However, I find it very plausible that Shiv did not want this baby - she knows she'd be a terrible mom, her own mother said as much to her, and now Tom has as well. What better way to "shiv" Tom than to abort his (much wanted) baby and then tell him she has done so.

Now tell us about some of your made-up theories so we can criticize them and tell you how wrong you are.

I think she was about to call and ask about tuition prices for clown school and then Tom walked in and hugged her and she decided she didn’t want to work as a clown anymore

[Anonymous]

"Wait, Connor was running for President?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

You criticize those of us who have suggested Shiv will abort, and then you suggest that it's quite possible she aborts.

I criticized people making up things about reasons she had an amino - to give her a reason to abort- and saying “she was sitting in the conference room about to call and schedule an abortion when Tom walked in”, absolutely. Because it was made up.

Except that you don't know that, any more than the rest of us do. Posters are taking free rein, making up what THEY think will happen in this series, or how THEY interpreted a scene. That is one interpretation of Shiv's scene, alone in the conference room. That perhaps she was going to call her OB and schedule an abortion, when Tom walks in and is especially sweet and kind to her in that moment. So perhaps she reconsiders the abortion. This is all a theory - just like the numerous other theories posited on this thread.

As for the amnio, I was one of the posters who was saying she just had a routine amnio, as many of us "advanced maternal aged" moms have had (35+). I made no sinister reference as to why she had the amnio, unlike some other posters (I've had three of my own, all routine). However, I find it very plausible that Shiv did not want this baby - she knows she'd be a terrible mom, her own mother said as much to her, and now Tom has as well. What better way to "shiv" Tom than to abort his (much wanted) baby and then tell him she has done so.

Now tell us about some of your made-up theories so we can criticize them and tell you how wrong you are.

I think she was about to call and ask about tuition prices for clown school and then Tom walked in and hugged her and she decided she didn’t want to work as a clown anymore

+1 and what people don't seem to get is that when they were in Norway earlier in the season, and Shiv was talking to Matsson in the evening, there's a scene they don't show where Matsson shows Shiv a time travel machine he had the engineers at GoJo build for him, and they get in it and go back in time to the moment of insemination, and they substitute Matsson's sperm for Tom's. He doesn't have sex with Shiv, that would be weird -- he is carrying around a turkey baster with his sperm and they use that. Then they return to the current timeline only now Shiv is pregnant with Matsson's baby, not Tom's.

It's all in the subject of the actor's expressions, plus if you pause the screen at the 45 minute mark, you can see a text on Shiv's phone (it's on the table and at an angle, some people might not be able to see it) from Matsson that says "remember when we time traveled and impregnated you with my sperm, that was cool" and that's why Shiv has that momentary look of confusion or anger on her face when Roman tells her he wants to throw the election to Menken.

Also, Matsson is the one who was suggested clown college to her, that's in another deleted scene. He also suggested clown college to Greg when they were doing cocaine with the old man the night before the election. Swedish people are really into clowns and it's a litmus test for him to determine who is on the kill list. The way characters feel about becoming clowns is a tell for where they will vote on the GoJo deal.

[Anonymous]

It’s clown college. If you were from one of the coasts you’d know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally saw this episode as a possible foreshadowing of 2024 and it made me sick. I was down all night.

I agree. I found it very sickening to watch.

I agree. It was disaster porn and lazy writing.

This episode was far from Lazy writing. It touched us all so much, a terrifying idea of what could happen in the next election, and brought up history from 2016/2020. It was a great episode, perhaps the best one I've seen on Succession (Logan's death was the best acting).

Agree, and I also appreciate how much this episode refused to soften any of the characters or make any of them sympathetic. There was a moment when I felt bad for Shiv (when she tells Tom about the pregnancy and then he asks if she's just using this as a tactic) but I didn't find her very sympathetic. But even in that moment, I can recall a million times when Shiv was very cruel and terrible to Tom and I kind of get where he is coming from.

It reminds me of Veep, which could also be a hard watch even when it was very funny, because it's incredibly cynical about the people it portrays. But that cynicism allows them to be honest in a way a lot of scripted series are not. It's brutal but, I think, revealing. This episode was miserable to watch but will also stay with me a long time in a positive way, in terms of shaping how I think about media and politics and who has my best interests at heart (hint: none of the people in charge).

Georgia Pritchett is a writer for succession and wrote for Veep too!

[Anonymous]

I’ve watched this show to the end. Never got that interesting. Take away the money and scenery and it’s a boring story line. I kept hoping for it to get interesting and it never has. Really nothing has happened the entire time. The plot is so boring it has to be filled up with sex jokes and bad language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Wait, Connor was running for President?"

That was a good line

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

You criticize those of us who have suggested Shiv will abort, and then you suggest that it's quite possible she aborts.

I criticized people making up things about reasons she had an amino - to give her a reason to abort- and saying “she was sitting in the conference room about to call and schedule an abortion when Tom walked in”, absolutely. Because it was made up.

Except that you don't know that, any more than the rest of us do. Posters are taking free rein, making up what THEY think will happen in this series, or how THEY interpreted a scene. That is one interpretation of Shiv's scene, alone in the conference room. That perhaps she was going to call her OB and schedule an abortion, when Tom walks in and is especially sweet and kind to her in that moment. So perhaps she reconsiders the abortion. This is all a theory - just like the numerous other theories posited on this thread.

As for the amnio, I was one of the posters who was saying she just had a routine amnio, as many of us "advanced maternal aged" moms have had (35+). I made no sinister reference as to why she had the amnio, unlike some other posters (I've had three of my own, all routine). However, I find it very plausible that Shiv did not want this baby - she knows she'd be a terrible mom, her own mother said as much to her, and now Tom has as well. What better way to "shiv" Tom than to abort his (much wanted) baby and then tell him she has done so.

Now tell us about some of your made-up theories so we can criticize them and tell you how wrong you are.

I think she was about to call and ask about tuition prices for clown school and then Tom walked in and hugged her and she decided she didn’t want to work as a clown anymore

+1 and what people don't seem to get is that when they were in Norway earlier in the season, and Shiv was talking to Matsson in the evening, there's a scene they don't show where Matsson shows Shiv a time travel machine he had the engineers at GoJo build for him, and they get in it and go back in time to the moment of insemination, and they substitute Matsson's sperm for Tom's. He doesn't have sex with Shiv, that would be weird -- he is carrying around a turkey baster with his sperm and they use that. Then they return to the current timeline only now Shiv is pregnant with Matsson's baby, not Tom's.

It's all in the subject of the actor's expressions, plus if you pause the screen at the 45 minute mark, you can see a text on Shiv's phone (it's on the table and at an angle, some people might not be able to see it) from Matsson that says "remember when we time traveled and impregnated you with my sperm, that was cool" and that's why Shiv has that momentary look of confusion or anger on her face when Roman tells her he wants to throw the election to Menken.

Also, Matsson is the one who was suggested clown college to her, that's in another deleted scene. He also suggested clown college to Greg when they were doing cocaine with the old man the night before the election. Swedish people are really into clowns and it's a litmus test for him to determine who is on the kill list. The way characters feel about becoming clowns is a tell for where they will vote on the GoJo deal.

You don't understand the moral imperative around clown college and you lack insight into how despicable clowns are. I'm the only one who gets it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

You criticize those of us who have suggested Shiv will abort, and then you suggest that it's quite possible she aborts.

I criticized people making up things about reasons she had an amino - to give her a reason to abort- and saying “she was sitting in the conference room about to call and schedule an abortion when Tom walked in”, absolutely. Because it was made up.

Except that you don't know that, any more than the rest of us do. Posters are taking free rein, making up what THEY think will happen in this series, or how THEY interpreted a scene. That is one interpretation of Shiv's scene, alone in the conference room. That perhaps she was going to call her OB and schedule an abortion, when Tom walks in and is especially sweet and kind to her in that moment. So perhaps she reconsiders the abortion. This is all a theory - just like the numerous other theories posited on this thread.

As for the amnio, I was one of the posters who was saying she just had a routine amnio, as many of us "advanced maternal aged" moms have had (35+). I made no sinister reference as to why she had the amnio, unlike some other posters (I've had three of my own, all routine). However, I find it very plausible that Shiv did not want this baby - she knows she'd be a terrible mom, her own mother said as much to her, and now Tom has as well. What better way to "shiv" Tom than to abort his (much wanted) baby and then tell him she has done so.

Now tell us about some of your made-up theories so we can criticize them and tell you how wrong you are.

I think she was about to call and ask about tuition prices for clown school and then Tom walked in and hugged her and she decided she didn’t want to work as a clown anymore

+1 and what people don't seem to get is that when they were in Norway earlier in the season, and Shiv was talking to Matsson in the evening, there's a scene they don't show where Matsson shows Shiv a time travel machine he had the engineers at GoJo build for him, and they get in it and go back in time to the moment of insemination, and they substitute Matsson's sperm for Tom's. He doesn't have sex with Shiv, that would be weird -- he is carrying around a turkey baster with his sperm and they use that. Then they return to the current timeline only now Shiv is pregnant with Matsson's baby, not Tom's.

It's all in the subject of the actor's expressions, plus if you pause the screen at the 45 minute mark, you can see a text on Shiv's phone (it's on the table and at an angle, some people might not be able to see it) from Matsson that says "remember when we time traveled and impregnated you with my sperm, that was cool" and that's why Shiv has that momentary look of confusion or anger on her face when Roman tells her he wants to throw the election to Menken.

Also, Matsson is the one who was suggested clown college to her, that's in another deleted scene. He also suggested clown college to Greg when they were doing cocaine with the old man the night before the election. Swedish people are really into clowns and it's a litmus test for him to determine who is on the kill list. The way characters feel about becoming clowns is a tell for where they will vote on the GoJo deal.

But the part you fail to recognize is that Matsson couldn't have been the father because when HE was in clown college he was kicked really hard in the nuts enough times that he became sterile. He found that out when he and Ebba tried to have a baby, before the frozen blood thing. So the baby must be Nate's.