Why are so many UMC average students "Learning Disabled"?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous[b wrote:]It cost $3000 to have a qualified doctor do the testing for accommodations and you have to do it every 3 years to get accommodations.[/b]

Ok, so if every C student had the ability to get private testing by a doctor, would they all come out with some sort of label? My guess is yes. At a minimum they would get adhd-inattentive.

BS.

Seriously? You really think this is BS?? Pretty much every struggling kid, who is evaluated gets ADHD-inattentive if no other issue can be found. The descriptors for it are so broad that it can apply to almost anyone who is not high functioning.

This is just not true. The testing is based on more than just someone's description. You are clueless about the process and are bitter that either you or your child are not smarter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

I have a kid with a high iq and low processing speed. My child takes advanced classes and has scored 5s on AP tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only specific learning disabilities are Dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, and auditory processing disorder. ADHD is not considered an LD.

Low processing speed refers to an index score on the wheschler intelligence tests. So, yes, it is part of what makes up one’s IQ. Lower processing speed will lower one’s FSIQ, though not by a whole lot.

I realize ADHD is not specifically considered an LD. But it can be used to receive accomodations in school and extra time on the SATs (although not always). I have heard different things about slow processing speed. Some people say it's part of IQ. Others say the part of IQ that matters is the GAI. If the processing speed is signifcantly lower than the GAI, it's seen as something along the lines of a learning disability. Sometimes in school, these kids are given the label OHI - which seems to be given when you see these unequal scores in iq and there is nothing specific it can be attributed to.

Most people's IQ subscores are all near each other...all near 100, all near 85, all near 115. Having one score 3, 4, or 5 standard deviations apart from the others is a sign of a learning disability. If a child with a 85 on processing speed has 130-ish scores everywhere else, that's probably dyslexia in a gifted child. If the scores are 110ish (smart child) but again 85 processing, that's probably not dyslexia...probably a 'normal' bright kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

The way we calculate and value intelligence is by speed of processing.

More bs. Do you just pull this out of your ass?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

I have a kid with a high iq and low processing speed. My child takes advanced classes and has scored 5s on AP tests.

So would this kid be considered LD or not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous[b wrote:]It cost $3000 to have a qualified doctor do the testing for accommodations and you have to do it every 3 years to get accommodations.[/b]

Ok, so if every C student had the ability to get private testing by a doctor, would they all come out with some sort of label? My guess is yes. At a minimum they would get adhd-inattentive.

BS.

Seriously? You really think this is BS?? Pretty much every struggling kid, who is evaluated gets ADHD-inattentive if no other issue can be found. The descriptors for it are so broad that it can apply to almost anyone who is not high functioning.

This is just not true. The testing is based on more than just someone's description. You are clueless about the process and are bitter that either you or your child are not smarter.

My nephew's college roommate went to Exeter and has been diagnosed with ADHD and is on Adderall. He believes that he really has ADHD but says that close to half the kids at Exeter are also on ADHD medication and many students receive accommodations. Does this really seem normal to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

The way we calculate and value intelligence is by speed of processing.

More bs. Do you just pull this out of your ass?

Yes. Yes, she did.

[Anonymous]

No one has addressed how the diagnosis of OHI plays into this. These are kids who aren't doing well, but there can be no determination as to why. Are we to assume that these kids have a learning disability along the lines of dyslexia?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

The way we calculate and value intelligence is by speed of processing.

So is that a yes or a no?

That's a false statement. I hate myself for reading this thread.

It's pretty awful isn't it? Now you know what people really think of students with learning disabilities.

My DS's math tutor said that he has more than three standard deviations between his processing speed and his reasoning scores. He said he couldn't pass timed tests for simple multiplication in elementary school and it was only when he got to subjects like algebra that he demonstrated a talent for math. He is currently working on an advanced degree in mathematics at a top university (not naming it). He's not valued for his speed- he's valued for his ability to solve math problems that 99.99% of us can't solve.

I think a lot of people posting on this thread have never met a twice exceptional child. These kids are not mediocre learners- these kids are intellectually curious, intense, with significant discrepancies between intellect and some areas of performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

The way we calculate and value intelligence is by speed of processing.

So is that a yes or a no?

That's a false statement. I hate myself for reading this thread.

It's pretty awful isn't it? Now you know what people really think of students with learning disabilities.

My DS's math tutor said that he has more than three standard deviations between his processing speed and his reasoning scores. He said he couldn't pass timed tests for simple multiplication in elementary school and it was only when he got to subjects like algebra that he demonstrated a talent for math. He is currently working on an advanced degree in mathematics at a top university (not naming it). He's not valued for his speed- he's valued for his ability to solve math problems that 99.99% of us can't solve.

I think a lot of people posting on this thread have never met a twice exceptional child. These kids are not mediocre learners- these kids are intellectually curious, intense, with significant discrepancies between intellect and some areas of performance.

Ok so is this a learning disability then? I know that it is not listed as a formal LD, and some people say no it's not. But I have also heard that it is. Would a student like this who has a huge discrepancy between processing speed and other areas of intellect be given accommodations in school. And if so, under what label?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You can have an LD and still be stupid, a bad student, or a C student. You can have ADHD and still get Cs and still be a below average student.

What is this fixation with calling children stupid?

I’m just using the words used by posters on this thread. A pp before my original post said something like, “if we didn’t find out dd was dyslexic people would just assume she were stupid.”

I don’t like the word, stupid, for kids. But a few posters have used it to describe kids who struggle in school and don’t have a diagnosis. That’s terrible! My original post was meant to point out that just because your kid has a diagnosis it doesn’t magically make them no longer struggle in school. It’s not some excuse. An average student is an average student with or without a diagnosis.

Most kids with LDd are still below average students. That’s just a fact.

. Please provide a link that backs your assertion.

By definition 50% kids are below average. Most kids with LDs are struggling students. I know there is a popular narrative among UMC parents that says kids with LDs are actually bright kids who are only average because of an LD, but that only exists in the UMC world. More than half of kids with LDs are struggling at the bottom of the class.

I am the OP and as I stated previously my daughter is a struggling student, we will most likely have her tested, and I'm guessing that she will walk away with a label. But I'm pragmatic enough to realize that what this actually means that she is just not as bright as others - at least in some areas.

Something that’s taken off in recent years is this wonderful idea that we should celebrate neurodiversity. And it is exactly how you describe. Your child has strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, even the C student who doesn’t have a diagnosis has strengths and weaknesses.

My child has dyslexia/dysgraphia. She has strengths and weaknesses. I love to think about her particular intelligence profile is a gift. But reality is she has deficits. ALL KIDS WITH LDS DO. It’s not so much that she thinks differently (neurodiversity). She does. But she also has a brain defect. And that is never going to go away.

We are happy that she is improving upon her weaknesses and her strengths shine, but I don’t pretend she’s any different from an average student when she performs in an average way.

There will always be a bell curve. Most kids with LDs fall somewhere in the middle because they get supports. Without them they would be at the tail end. Im not sure why this is being debated. That is how you get an LD diagnosis. Sure kids can have strengths that fall far above that. But the deficits were or still are painfully and obviously low.

OP here. This is my beef as well. It seems ridiculous to pretend that someone who is performing at a mediocre level because of an LD is somehow superior to someone who is performing at a mediocre level due to a "flat iq profile". Either way they are both mediocre and both would do better with extra help. Fact is both have something going on with their brain that keeps them from achieving at a higher level.

Someone who has the capacity to perform at a higher level, except for a particular deficiency, is different from someone who just tops out at a lower level. Not everyone is the same, academically, athletically, artistically.

If we issued everyone one-on-one tutors and trainers for everything, everyone will perform better. But my artistic ability is never going to be that of someone with actual talent; my upper limit might have been stretched beyond what it is with no training, but it's still going to be more limited than someone with actual talent. We're not all the same.

But, if my problem was that I'm naturally right handed, but had a stroke and could only use my left hand, therapy might indeed serve some purpose and allow me enough mastery over my left hand in order to be able to more closely express my natural abilities. Should we deny therapy to the person with the stroke, because there are people like me who aren't good at art, and so the person with the stroke should just accept that they are now average like the rest of us not-good-at-art people?

It is also true that UMC kids have more access to things that let them get closer to their top potential than people without access to extra money. Money is a big help. And working class people have more access than poor people. And rich people have more access than UMC people.

But my DD's dyslexia doesn't make her an "average" intellect. It makes her a smart kid, with a deficit that affects a broad range of her academic life. Provide her with audio books instead of text books, allow her to narrate or use a computer, and suddenly her academics are significantly improved. She still has a limit - she's not a genius, she's an average smart kid. So sure, one-on-one tutoring probably would have allowed her to take Calc in 9th grade instead of 11th, but her taking it in 11th isn't because of a deficit in how her brain works. So school's not going to provide her with a one-on-one tutor just to make sure she can perform to the very peak of her potential, but they will provide accommodations like audio books and extra time for written work or using a computer, so that she can demonstrate her actual ability.

I'd also bet you run into more "above average" academically UMC kids (with and without LDs), because my understanding is they're more likely to come from intact homes, with parents who have post-high school education, and we know those two things are a huge benefit for how kids perform academically.

OP here. I'm not saying that LD's do not exist at all and I would consider dyslexia to be an example of something that is more of a legitimate LD. But if you look over on the teen board, there is a thread along the lines of "would you leave your kid alone if they were making B's and C's. And the overwhelming consensus is no. Pretty much all the posters are saying that they do not consider C's acceptable. That's basically the issue. If a parent has a C student, they see that as a sign that something isn't right. They take the kid to a psychologist to get tested, and usually the kid will get some sort of diagnosis that could make them eligible for services. It may not be dyslexia, but very often it's adhd inattentive or a discrepancy in some area of intellect. My hunch is that if you dug deep enough, you can find some sort of label for almost any C student (especially the adhd label that could really apply to almost anyone). I'm also the poster with the nephew with the roommate from Exeter who said that about half the kids there supposedly have ADHD. The scary thing is that the parents probably aren't even trying to play the system. They see their kids having difficulty keeping up in a very competitive environment, and they legitimately think that the kid has some sort of problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is slow processing speed considered a LD or just low intelligence? What if the kid has a high scores in all other areas except processing speed?

The way we calculate and value intelligence is by speed of processing.

So is that a yes or a no?

That's a false statement. I hate myself for reading this thread.

It's pretty awful isn't it? Now you know what people really think of students with learning disabilities.

My DS's math tutor said that he has more than three standard deviations between his processing speed and his reasoning scores. He said he couldn't pass timed tests for simple multiplication in elementary school and it was only when he got to subjects like algebra that he demonstrated a talent for math. He is currently working on an advanced degree in mathematics at a top university (not naming it). He's not valued for his speed- he's valued for his ability to solve math problems that 99.99% of us can't solve.

I think a lot of people posting on this thread have never met a twice exceptional child. These kids are not mediocre learners- these kids are intellectually curious, intense, with significant discrepancies between intellect and some areas of performance.

Ok so is this a learning disability then? I know that it is not listed as a formal LD, and some people say no it's not. But I have also heard that it is. Would a student like this who has a huge discrepancy between processing speed and other areas of intellect be given accommodations in school. And if so, under what label?

pp here- I didn't directly ask him if he was formally diagnosed with a learning disability. My DS has a similar profile, less dramatic on processing but still 2.5 SD difference, and has ADHD. My point was that the tutor's IQ is not valued for speed. He can solve math problems that very few people can solve.
There's some debate about processing speed--imo it could be considered a learning disability when there are extreme discrepancies - in the case I mentioned, being able to learn number theory, advanced calculus, theoretical math, etc. but being kept out of a gifted program because you can't complete a math facts test in two minutes?

[cater]

I find the concept of "legitimate" LD questionable. Please consider what you're suggesting, and how things like dyslexia and autism were treated just a generation ago.

[Anonymous]

More and more umc people are having kids later in life thereby affecting their kids’ genetic quality.

That’s why there’s been an uptick in this stuff.

Dysgenic selection

[Anonymous]

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I am a research scientist and have a child who is "gifted and learning disabled".

Had he been born in my generation, he would just have been labeled quirky, slow, lazy, even stupid. He would have been teased and bullied and doors would have closed for him before middle school, despite his high IQ and potential to contribute to the world.

Now, thanks to progress in the field of mental health and the breakdown of societal taboos, he is known to have: moderate-to-severe ADHD, very low processing speed, and a severe impairment in his left-side motor skills (which reflect an impairment in his right hemisphere).
There are all related disorders.

I am SO GRATEFUL that he has accommodation at school and that teachers and students are trained to be understanding and not dismissive!!!

In return, he is a mellow, courteous person, and if he is given the chance, he's got the intellect to be a researcher/academic just like his parents.

Ok. But doesn't every person who isn't functioning at a high level have something going on in their brain that makes them incapable of doing so?

Research scientist again - no.

This is what neuropsychological testing does: it susses out whether you are functioning in approximately the same way for all aspects of cognitive and processing skills. If you are, then nothing is wrong with you, and you are functioning at your potential. If there is a statistically significant discrepancy between one or other of your subscores, then that's a red flag for a learning disability that is holding you back. And for many such disabilities, there's not much that can be done that has been proven to work. For some, there is, and that's where school services and accommodations come in.

Learning disabilities have nothing to do with how smart you are (and then there's the tricky question of how you define intelligence). Learning disabilities and mental health disorders deserve to be treated just as seriously as physical illness and physical conditions, do you know why? Because they ARE physical conditions! Located in the brain, that's all. They are a reflection of brain trauma, or neuronal connectors gone awry, or neurotransmitter imbalance, etc... and it's only recently that we've recognized "mental issues" to be brain dysfunctions just like liver dysfunction or any other organ dysfunction.

DP. You describe your DC as just like yourself and your DH, who are research scientists/academics. During your childhood, you experienced adversity and learned how to adjust or overcome it. Your DC isn't learning that. Are his accommodations more valuable than learning experiences?

Do you really think a few accommodations erases all the adversity that comes with dyslexia? Wouldn't that be a Shangri la.