What is Middle Class....Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary.

"A ton of student loans" means that they are not Top or Upper Class since those loans wouldn't exist if there was substantial inherited wealth. Since that $350k income is earned income and not passive income (and hence would stop if the person stopped working), the person would be Upper Middle Class. If the $350k was a one-time occurrence, the person could be Middle Class or lower.

[Anonymous]

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

[Anonymous]

I'm the $365K poster.

We're early 40's and have only had this income level for the past 3 years. Prior to that we were at $250K.

If I'm being totally
-our house is worth 1.3K, purchased for 975K with no prior equity (just a downpayment).
-we also just bought a beach house for $350K.
-we have 3 kids in public school
-we just returned from 2 weeks in Asia and kids have been to Europe twice the last 2 years.
-We max out 2 401ks and save aggressively for college.
-2 of our kids play travel sports at ~$2-3K a year EACH.
-2 of our kids take piano lessons at $1600 a year EACH.
-we still save ~50K a year.


All this on 2 years at $365k income. Prior to that we had a $250K income for 10 years. Prior to that we made about $130K since age 25

NO inherited money. ~$100k in student loans that we paid off by living very, very frugally the first year out of grad school at age 30. We were making $250K and paid off $100K that year.

Anyway, i consider ourselves upper middle class. No one will convince me that we're not. We have more money than we need. We own a second home. We vacation internationally yearly. And yes, we could afford to fly first class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You think that's how it works? It could take years for a couple to reach that income. It's not like someone starts making $350k out the bat (some do, but most of us don't).

Of course not, but you ain't starting in the mailroom at $22K if you're making $350k while your kids are still in school. At some point, right before you're having that first kid and moving to the million dollar neighborhood you're making at least a very significant fraction of that $350k.

If you're making $150K plus, are saddled with loans (and are concerned that you can't live the future lifestyle you want with those payments), and are contemplating that move to North Arlington or Tenleytown - take a break, live simply, ditch the BMW for the bus, get a room in a group house in Petworth or wherever is cheap, put all your money towards your loans and you will easily pay them off in a couple years. I don't know if you ever did start at the bottom, but I did. My first job out of college paid $30K in 2010. I could easily go back to living that lifestyle and if I did it with a $150K income I could put $70K a year towards loans.

Or more realistically, maintain that 1BR lifestyle you probably already had when you first entered the workforce and put all your income gains into your loans and when that time comes to start a family they will have been long gone.

[Anonymous]

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

In my opinion that still makes them pretty well off -- but YMMV.

[Anonymous]

NP but just wanted to say that I'm a teacher and I'd love to make 80k! Probably will never make that much in my career. And I have a master's degree and certifications in 7 different grade/subject areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the $365K poster.

We're early 40's and have only had this income level for the past 3 years. Prior to that we were at $250K.

If I'm being totally
-our house is worth 1.3K, purchased for 975K with no prior equity (just a downpayment).
-we also just bought a beach house for $350K.
-we have 3 kids in public school
-we just returned from 2 weeks in Asia and kids have been to Europe twice the last 2 years.
-We max out 2 401ks and save aggressively for college.
-2 of our kids play travel sports at ~$2-3K a year EACH.
-2 of our kids take piano lessons at $1600 a year EACH.
-we still save ~50K a year.


All this on 2 years at $365k income. Prior to that we had a $250K income for 10 years. Prior to that we made about $130K since age 25

NO inherited money. ~$100k in student loans that we paid off by living very, very frugally the first year out of grad school at age 30. We were making $250K and paid off $100K that year.

Anyway, i consider ourselves upper middle class. No one will convince me that we're not. We have more money than we need. We own a second home. We vacation internationally yearly. And yes, we could afford to fly first class.

If you were making six figures starting at age 25, of course you can afford all of the above! I believe I was at $36k.

[Anonymous]

By assuming this vast wealth is "normal," you're making yourselves objectively less happy and raising your children to be unable to participate normally in the workplace and society. My family makes half of what people are talking about on here, and we never spend a minute thinking we don't have enough or we wish we had as much as our neighbors. You are seriously stressing yourselves out with all this crap about "we're just getting by." And you're teaching your children that the only possible careers are law, medicine, or private equity or else they won't be able to "get by." This is beyond whining, you are actually causing yourselves harm living in a world where you think $350k or $400k is not enough.

[Anonymous]

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

In my opinion that still makes them pretty well off -- but YMMV.

Yes, pretty well off = comfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

In my opinion that still makes them pretty well off -- but YMMV.

Yes, pretty well off = comfortable.

It's more than comfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

In my opinion that still makes them pretty well off -- but YMMV.

Yes, pretty well off = comfortable.

Comfortable is pretty subjective. If you think you are JUST comfortable with a million dollar home, fully funding retirement and college accounts AND investing - then so be it. Nothing I can say is going to change your mind. Pretty sad honestly.

[Anonymous]

"And how do you think this type of out-of-touch bubble thinking is received by the real middle class in America, earning $80k combined, living in a 1500 square foot home built 50 years ago, paying the bills, and maybe....maybe....being able to afford a week at the beach?

Or, what about the lower-middle and working class, making do on $50k, and renting an apartment in a so-so neighborhood, and staying in a Motel 6 during vacation? Because that group comprises the largest voting block, and they are turned off by the bubble talk."

So how should people with $200K + HHI appeal to the vast majority voting bloc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Not PP and I agree it's not struggling, but you forgot about student loans, utilities & house maintenance, car & life insurance, and medical care, among other things. All of this adds up to more than $1,000 a month. My student loan payment is $1000/month alone and I'm in the public service loan forgiveness program. And to keep that "middle class" lifestyle after retirement, most people would need to save more than the minimum $18k/year/person in 401k's.

I can definitely see some of those things being additional expenses, but not all of them, and certainly not at a deal-breaking level.

For car insurance you're looking at $200 a month extra at most. That's a rounding error in this kind of budget. And I would assume (or at least hope!) that by the time you are on your second child and have bought a million dollar house you have paid off your student loans. But hey, we are also talking about people who can't figure out how to make ends meet on $350K a year, so who knows, maybe they couldn't figure out that 2 or 3 more years in that 1BR without child expenses would have paid off their loans!

A quick quote from state farm says $2,000,000 in term life insurance is $253 a month for someone in good health. Assuming you are in good health and you're around 40 years old your medical bills shouldn't be too much, especially with the kind of insurance you can buy at $350K/yr.

You're right, there is more than meets the eye with regard to expenses, but the point remains that anyone with a modicum of common sense could easily run a middle class household on $350K a year, and it would not require much more financial savvy than that to figure out how to run it while affording a trip to Europe.

You think it takes 2 or 3 years in a one-bedroom to pay off student loans?

No shit...a lot of people in this area have taken on a ton of student loans to be able to make that 350k salary. Not 50-70k but 200k for the household. And spare me the crap about "well they shouldn't have done that, I didn't do that" because the reality is that most people making that much have a ton of student loans. The question was also whether or not a family with 350k hhi could afford a FIRST class trip to Europe, which will cost at least 15-20k. Does anyone really think this family can comfortably afford to lay out that much while paying for the additional expenses which another poster's dumb budget conveniently didn't account for?

I'm not sure what a first class trip has to do with anything. 350k is still a lot of money. You can prioritize it however you want.

Read the rest of the thread about the "first class to Europe" thing. 350k is a lot of money in Tennessee, not here.

It's a lot of money everywhere. Really.

It is, but the context was that this $350k family lives in $1M home, flashy cars, and taking first-class trips to Europe. That's really not the representative lifestyle of people making $350k/year in this area. Yes, $1M homes, but usually they're spending $ on childcare, private schools, and saving for retirement and investing (hopefully).

In my opinion that still makes them pretty well off -- but YMMV.

Yes, pretty well off = comfortable.

Comfortable is pretty subjective. If you think you are JUST comfortable with a million dollar home, fully funding retirement and college accounts AND investing - then so be it. Nothing I can say is going to change your mind. Pretty sad honestly.

You don't always know other people's situations. . . they could have family that is sick that relies on them for medical and other financial support . . . very common these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's more than comfortable.

If you're busting your ass billing 2000+ hours per year, "comfortable" isn't exactly the word I'd use.

It's definitely a lot of income, but there's no freedom if you can't walk away from your job.

Comfort would be having the $350k in passive income from investments. That level of wealth (as opposed to income) is difficult to achieve. You need about 25 times your annual spending in investments to achieve it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's more than comfortable.

If you're busting your ass billing 2000+ hours per year, "comfortable" isn't exactly the word I'd use.

It's definitely a lot of income, but there's no freedom if you can't walk away from your job.

Comfort would be having the $350k in passive income from investments. That level of wealth (as opposed to income) is difficult to achieve. You need about 25 times your annual spending in investments to achieve it.

Right? We're at $330k, two income household. DH drives 1.5 hours each way every day to get that paycheck. And yes, he could look for another job, but he just started this job 1/2 year ago after leaving a job that required him to travel 100%. Are we thankful every day for the opportunities we've been given? Yes. Do we feel like we're living the life of luxury? No.