Do "believers" only believe because they are conforming? [ATHEISTS ONLY]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But I have to admit that much more than this poster's craziness, I am troubled by the silence of the posters I was discussing this with yesterday calling on me to criticize my fellow atheists (which I did multiple times when I thought they were out of line) and yet virtually no one has tried to get this looney tunes under control. What is that?"

"craziness," "looney tunes"--why don't you learn how to think? What's with the constant resort to silly name calling?

You are unbelievably aggressive, rude, and condescending gaslighter.

You also picked probably the most reasonable and nicest atheist to argue with which is really peculiar but I'm also not a pushover. You are hostile, I won't pretend you're not just to be polite.

+1. I'm a theist who's trying to rein in the more obnoxious theists here (I've been at lunch so I missed this most recent mess). I'm having a hard time figuring out who's who. But I think you're arguing with the most obnoxious atheist here. If we could vote someone off the forum, it would me that atheist before even the rude evangelical. At least the rude evangelical is a straight shooter. This atheist is so very twisty and aggressive.

PS this whole thread is an argument for usernames.

PPS. I think nobody else has weighed in because nobody else can figure out what's going on. Is this last page two atheists arguing?

I'm not convinced these trolls are actually atheists. They seem to just want to argue and be mean to whomever is engaging them. They are arguing with me about whether or not atheism even makes sense. They're just contrary.

Isn't that what the OP of the other thread had suggested? Hilarious, they've proved his point. Wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But I have to admit that much more than this poster's craziness, I am troubled by the silence of the posters I was discussing this with yesterday calling on me to criticize my fellow atheists (which I did multiple times when I thought they were out of line) and yet virtually no one has tried to get this looney tunes under control. What is that?"

"craziness," "looney tunes"--why don't you learn how to think? What's with the constant resort to silly name calling?

You are unbelievably aggressive, rude, and condescending gaslighter.

You also picked probably the most reasonable and nicest atheist to argue with which is really peculiar but I'm also not a pushover. You are hostile, I won't pretend you're not just to be polite.

+1. I'm a theist who's trying to rein in the more obnoxious theists here (I've been at lunch so I missed this most recent mess). I'm having a hard time figuring out who's who. But I think you're arguing with the most obnoxious atheist here. If we could vote someone off the forum, it would me that atheist before even the rude evangelical. At least the rude evangelical is a straight shooter. This atheist is so very twisty and aggressive.

PS this whole thread is an argument for usernames.

PPS. I think nobody else has weighed in because nobody else can figure out what's going on. Is this last page two atheists arguing?

I'm not convinced these trolls are actually atheists. They seem to just want to argue and be mean to whomever is engaging them. They are arguing with me about whether or not atheism even makes sense. They're just contrary.

Isn't that what the OP of the other thread had suggested? Hilarious, they've proved his point. Wow.

That op suggested all atheists are contrary. I'm suggesting all trolls are contrary. While there is most certainly an overlap in populations, I think every population has trolls frankly, it did not prove that oops point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ignoring the BS of the last however many pages...

I think that spirituality, like a lot of other stuff, is hugely influenced by what a person experiences related to it in childhood. Not for everyone, and not the same way, but in general, I think that if you are raised in a particular spiritual tradition, the easiest path is staying within it. You have a model for how to bring children into it, how to answer questions about faith, etc. as well as a community with norms that are familiar. I think people debating faith often gloss over the social importance of church attendance in many communities when discussing people's spiritual behavior.

I was not raised in any particular tradition. We didn't go to church at all as a kid, and while my mom is a practicing Christian now, she has made it very clear that there's no pressure on any family member to participate with her. Her husband (my stepdad) isn't a Christian, and I've been t church with her maybe 3x in 10 years. I find church peaceful and meditative, but being there doesn't feel like a religious experience for me and it's not my community. I didn't consider what church to join when I moved and my husband and I were married in a civil ceremony, not a religious one.

I don't think it's about conformity or nonconformity for people who aren't ostentatious about their faith (and I'm including militant atheists in that category - I suppose if asked to pick from a list. I'd pick atheist over other options because I don't believe in God but it's not a core part of my identity). I think the people who really have an axe to grind about the existence or nonexistence of a supreme being are all conformist in their own ways. Of the atheists I've met who fit that description, most of them have had some scarring experience with religion, whether it be growing up in a restrictive religious home or some other trauma that caused them to lose faith. The person I know who was most militantly atheist lost her very Catholic mother when she was about 12 and as a result of that experience, she believes that God cannot exist.

pp - you mention "militant" a couple of times when describing a certain type of atheist. Can you describe some characteristics a militant atheist would have? I'm also curious about characteristics a religious believer would have who approaches belief similar to the way that a militant atheist approaches non-belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignoring the BS of the last however many pages...

I think that spirituality, like a lot of other stuff, is hugely influenced by what a person experiences related to it in childhood. Not for everyone, and not the same way, but in general, I think that if you are raised in a particular spiritual tradition, the easiest path is staying within it. You have a model for how to bring children into it, how to answer questions about faith, etc. as well as a community with norms that are familiar. I think people debating faith often gloss over the social importance of church attendance in many communities when discussing people's spiritual behavior.

I was not raised in any particular tradition. We didn't go to church at all as a kid, and while my mom is a practicing Christian now, she has made it very clear that there's no pressure on any family member to participate with her. Her husband (my stepdad) isn't a Christian, and I've been t church with her maybe 3x in 10 years. I find church peaceful and meditative, but being there doesn't feel like a religious experience for me and it's not my community. I didn't consider what church to join when I moved and my husband and I were married in a civil ceremony, not a religious one.

I don't think it's about conformity or nonconformity for people who aren't ostentatious about their faith (and I'm including militant atheists in that category - I suppose if asked to pick from a list. I'd pick atheist over other options because I don't believe in God but it's not a core part of my identity). I think the people who really have an axe to grind about the existence or nonexistence of a supreme being are all conformist in their own ways. Of the atheists I've met who fit that description, most of them have had some scarring experience with religion, whether it be growing up in a restrictive religious home or some other trauma that caused them to lose faith. The person I know who was most militantly atheist lost her very Catholic mother when she was about 12 and as a result of that experience, she believes that God cannot exist.

pp - you mention "militant" a couple of times when describing a certain type of atheist. Can you describe some characteristics a militant atheist would have? I'm also curious about characteristics a religious believer would have who approaches belief similar to the way that a militant atheist approaches non-belief.

17:19 here, not pp. I use militant to describe atheists that can't let things lie. Similar to a super political aunt or uncle when you're nervous about seeing them at the holidays because you know they're going to starthe a fight with someone.

A person who isn't content just knowing themselves, they feel compelled to tell everyone else they are wrong as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But I have to admit that much more than this poster's craziness, I am troubled by the silence of the posters I was discussing this with yesterday calling on me to criticize my fellow atheists (which I did multiple times when I thought they were out of line) and yet virtually no one has tried to get this looney tunes under control. What is that?"

"craziness," "looney tunes"--why don't you learn how to think? What's with the constant resort to silly name calling?

You are unbelievably aggressive, rude, and condescending gaslighter.

You also picked probably the most reasonable and nicest atheist to argue with which is really peculiar but I'm also not a pushover. You are hostile, I won't pretend you're not just to be polite.

+1. I'm a theist who's trying to rein in the more obnoxious theists here (I've been at lunch so I missed this most recent mess). I'm having a hard time figuring out who's who. But I think you're arguing with the most obnoxious atheist here. If we could vote someone off the forum, it would me that atheist before even the rude evangelical. At least the rude evangelical is a straight shooter. This atheist is so very twisty and aggressive.

PS this whole thread is an argument for usernames.

PPS. I think nobody else has weighed in because nobody else can figure out what's going on. Is this last page two atheists arguing?

+1

I'm pro usernames. I lieu of that (so Jeff can feed his kids) can people pick their own pseudonym? Or at least indicate if you are the OP or give a significant timestamp?

OP here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But I have to admit that much more than this poster's craziness, I am troubled by the silence of the posters I was discussing this with yesterday calling on me to criticize my fellow atheists (which I did multiple times when I thought they were out of line) and yet virtually no one has tried to get this looney tunes under control. What is that?"

"craziness," "looney tunes"--why don't you learn how to think? What's with the constant resort to silly name calling?

You are unbelievably aggressive, rude, and condescending gaslighter.

You also picked probably the most reasonable and nicest atheist to argue with which is really peculiar but I'm also not a pushover. You are hostile, I won't pretend you're not just to be polite.

+1. I'm a theist who's trying to rein in the more obnoxious theists here (I've been at lunch so I missed this most recent mess). I'm having a hard time figuring out who's who. But I think you're arguing with the most obnoxious atheist here. If we could vote someone off the forum, it would me that atheist before even the rude evangelical. At least the rude evangelical is a straight shooter. This atheist is so very twisty and aggressive.

PS this whole thread is an argument for usernames.

PPS. I think nobody else has weighed in because nobody else can figure out what's going on. Is this last page two atheists arguing?

I'm not convinced these trolls are actually atheists. They seem to just want to argue and be mean to whomever is engaging them. They are arguing with me about whether or not atheism even makes sense. They're just contrary.

Isn't that what the OP of the other thread had suggested? Hilarious, they've proved his point. Wow.

That op suggested all atheists are contrary. I'm suggesting all trolls are contrary. While there is most certainly an overlap in populations, I think every population has trolls frankly, it did not prove that oops point

There certainly is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignoring the BS of the last however many pages...

I think that spirituality, like a lot of other stuff, is hugely influenced by what a person experiences related to it in childhood. Not for everyone, and not the same way, but in general, I think that if you are raised in a particular spiritual tradition, the easiest path is staying within it. You have a model for how to bring children into it, how to answer questions about faith, etc. as well as a community with norms that are familiar. I think people debating faith often gloss over the social importance of church attendance in many communities when discussing people's spiritual behavior.

I was not raised in any particular tradition. We didn't go to church at all as a kid, and while my mom is a practicing Christian now, she has made it very clear that there's no pressure on any family member to participate with her. Her husband (my stepdad) isn't a Christian, and I've been t church with her maybe 3x in 10 years. I find church peaceful and meditative, but being there doesn't feel like a religious experience for me and it's not my community. I didn't consider what church to join when I moved and my husband and I were married in a civil ceremony, not a religious one.

I don't think it's about conformity or nonconformity for people who aren't ostentatious about their faith (and I'm including militant atheists in that category - I suppose if asked to pick from a list. I'd pick atheist over other options because I don't believe in God but it's not a core part of my identity). I think the people who really have an axe to grind about the existence or nonexistence of a supreme being are all conformist in their own ways. Of the atheists I've met who fit that description, most of them have had some scarring experience with religion, whether it be growing up in a restrictive religious home or some other trauma that caused them to lose faith. The person I know who was most militantly atheist lost her very Catholic mother when she was about 12 and as a result of that experience, she believes that God cannot exist.

pp - you mention "militant" a couple of times when describing a certain type of atheist. Can you describe some characteristics a militant atheist would have? I'm also curious about characteristics a religious believer would have who approaches belief similar to the way that a militant atheist approaches non-belief.

17:19 here, not pp. I use militant to describe atheists that can't let things lie. Similar to a super political aunt or uncle when you're nervous about seeing them at the holidays because you know they're going to starthe a fight with someone.

A person who isn't content just knowing themselves, they feel compelled to tell everyone else they are wrong as well.

Original PP here. I actually feel that anyone who goes out of their way - in person or online - to denigrate someone else's beliefs or further a particular agenda is behaving in a militant way. I would include in this list anyone who gets pissed off about holiday greetings, for example. The atheists who get super bent out of shape when someone wishes them a merry Christmas and goes out of their way to make sure everyone - in the Starbucks line, on FB, whatever - doesn't celebrate Christmas. I would also include Christians who get upset when someone says "happy holidays" in this example.

I don't include message boards like this as much because this section of DCUM is specifically geared to discussing religion. I thought the other thread was offensive and got more offensive as soon as it became about speculating about atheists' reasons for not believing in a God while saying that atheists themselves should not participate in that conversation. I don't think it's ever okay to mock other people's beliefs and think generally that people's spirituality is really personal to them.

I think there are reasonable people of all faiths and would include as militant anyone who is super invested in debunking the beliefs of someone else. I do think it's appropriate to communicate your beliefs in appropriate context, respectfully. Telling someone that they're stupid for believing in God or that they're going to hell for not believing in God is not appropriate respectful communication.

Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

Why shouldn't religious beliefs be open to denigration if they're illogical? The Bible is illogical. It's contradictory. Why get upset pointing that out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why shouldn't religious beliefs be open to denigration if they're illogical? The Bible is illogical. It's contradictory. Why get upset pointing that out?

Needs-a-handle atheist here. Reducing the faith of religious people to this statement is insulting. I have little patience for Bible Literalists and do not think all opinions are worthy of equal amounts of respect. I also know that the vast majority of religious individuals have a far more nuanced relationship to the Bible. You are implicitly doing the same 'paint all believers with the sins of the extremes' that many of us have been complaining about when done to atheists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why shouldn't religious beliefs be open to denigration if they're illogical? The Bible is illogical. It's contradictory. Why get upset pointing that out?

I don't think anyone gives a rat's behind if you point out that your opinion is that it's illogical and contradictory. Just like you probably wouldn't care if I pointed out that I think you have poor social skills. It's an opinion, after all. To each their own.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's ever okay to mock other people's beliefs


Atheism isn't a "belief."

[Anonymous]

while saying that atheists themselves should not participate in that conversation.


No one said that in the other thread. They said a particular atheist didn't have the right to insist that other people listen to his opinion before forming their own. Huge difference, eh?

[Anonymous]

Telling someone that they're stupid for believing in God or that they're going to hell for not believing in God is not appropriate respectful communication.

Does that make sense?

***

No it does not make sense PP. You don't get to dictate what other people think. If an atheist thinks someone who believes in God is stupid for having that belief, the atheist is perfectly entitled to hold that opinion. If a religious person thinks someone will go to hell if they don't believe in God, then that's what they believe.

PP you're entitled to believe whatever you want and you're entitled to express it. What is it though with posters who insist on telling other people what opinions they aren't allowed to have?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why shouldn't religious beliefs be open to denigration if they're illogical? The Bible is illogical. It's contradictory. Why get upset pointing that out?

Exactly. Not that the Bible is illogical necessarily, but if someone feels that way, then they feel that way. I would assume almost every atheist on one level or another finds the Bible and other religious texts inherently illogical. I'll bet lots of theists do too. Of course that doesn't deprive the Bible or other religious works of having any value. But how can you talk about something if you're not allowed to point out where it's illogical or contradictory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why shouldn't religious beliefs be open to denigration if they're illogical? The Bible is illogical. It's contradictory. Why get upset pointing that out?

I don't think anyone gives a rat's behind if you point out that your opinion is that it's illogical and contradictory. Just like you probably wouldn't care if I pointed out that I think you have poor social skills. It's an opinion, after all. To each their own.

But poor social skills whatever that means on the internet, aren't very pertinent to a discussion about theism, atheism, and religious works such as the Bible.