Proof of heaven

[takoma]

I just read (on Wiki, so it's not gospel) that some attrbute it to Lazarus himself. That would make it particularly apt for this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is pretty convincing. He was dead for several days. He initially used the euphamism that Lazarus had gone to sleep, but then plaininly stated "Lazarus has died". His sisters feared that when his tomb was opened there would be a disgusting stench. Jesus raised him from death in front of many people. This is amongst the most brazen and audacious miracles of Jesus.

Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Two points: First, weren't all those who were there long dead when it was written down? Second: Aren't emotional crowds among the most easily misled observers?

The story is in the Gospel of John. Authorship of that book of the bible is generally attributed to John the Apostle. He would have been a first hand witness of these events. As to when the story was put into writing, the earliest dates are likely to be around 60 AD. I think nearly every credible source would date it before the end of the first century (100 AD). So, it is most likely the story was written down and put into the "Book" of John about 30 to 70 years after the death of Jesus.

As a believer, I am perfectly willing to state the the collective memory of the town of Bethany (where this miracle occurred) is sufficient that if the story was a bunch of baloney, somebody from Bethany would have said so. But I fully admit that I have a rather huge bias as a Christian. However, I still think that there is some logic in the reasoning I just stated. I alway wonder why none of the early opponents of Christianity (of which there were many) did not just completely call "BS" on those who professed that Jesus (and Peter were miracle performers. Acts of the Apostles recounts more than a couple of miracles performed by Peter, in the name of Jesus.

Sorry to derail the thread, I'm not trying to proselytize.

About 3 minutes on google tells me that what's bolded above is wrong. According to Wikipedia: " Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship,[9][10] the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it, [11][12][13][14][15][16]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Authorship

As to the date, most put it at about the end of the first century. How you get from there to "most likely" it was written 70 years earlier is beyond me. It most definitely is not an eyewitness account.

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:I just read (on Wiki, so it's not gospel) that some attrbute it to Lazarus himself. That would make it particularly apt for this thread.

I actually am Lazarus and I'm telling you that I did not write the gospel according to John and what it says in the bible about me is completely untrue, except the resurrection part, but they got it all wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Frozen cells aren't dead cells.

I haven't seen any chickens walking out of my freezer.

Pretty hard to walk with no feet, head or organs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add, kind of interesting how there has never been a single case of someone "coming back to life" from a "near death experience" after every single cell in their body has ceased to be alive. Fascinating, that.

There has. There was a woman found frozen and dead, somewhere in Scandinavia I believe. She defrosted in the morgue and came back to life.

No contradiction there. Freezing obviously kept the cells alive.

To some extent it's a matter of definition, though, so I don't think it's worth arguing. But it makes for some good drama -- like Romeo and Juliet.

The story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is pretty convincing. He was dead for several days. He initially used the euphamism that Lazarus had gone to sleep, but then plaininly stated "Lazarus has died". His sisters feared that when his tomb was opened there would be a disgusting stench. Jesus raised him from death in front of many people. This is amongst the most brazen and audacious miracles of Jesus.

Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Whatever is going on in the Lazarus story, miracle or coma, I'm pretty sure that he wasn't frozen. It happened in Israel/Palestine/Egypt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Maybe the people who called BS on it got cut out of the story by an editor.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I don't have time to read 9 pages, but for what it's worth, I nearly died. I was a flatliner for nearly a minute. I saw absolutely nothing. Maybe other people have different experiences, but I saw no evidence of heaven, a light, anything like that.

[takoma]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time to read 9 pages, but for what it's worth, I nearly died. I was a flatliner for nearly a minute. I saw absolutely nothing. Maybe other people have different experiences, but I saw no evidence of heaven, a light, anything like that.

Must have been Purgatory.

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time to read 9 pages, but for what it's worth, I nearly died. I was a flatliner for nearly a minute. I saw absolutely nothing. Maybe other people have different experiences, but I saw no evidence of heaven, a light, anything like that.

Must have been Purgatory.

My (Catholic) pastor had a definition/explanation of purgatory that has always made me think differently about purgatory. The old line of thinking was that your soul could spend years and years in "purgatory" in preparation for entry into heaven. The amount of "time" your soul spent there depended on the level of purgation that was needed for your sould to be completely cleansed and thus worthy of entry into heaven. My pastor explained that he though purgatory was not at all defined by time and was simply an event wherein your sould is completely surrounded by the love of God and knowing this, you would feel, in addition to the overwhelming sense of love, some guilt/remorse for the sins you'd committed as each of those sins is, in a way, a rejection of God's love.

I hope he is right. It sounds like a better deal than years of sitting around waiting for a ticket into the pearly gates!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Whatever is going on in the Lazarus story, miracle or coma, I'm pretty sure that he wasn't frozen. It happened in Israel/Palestine/Egypt.

i am glad we cleared that out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: being Harvard educated/employed and being a doctor does not make someone more valid than someone who is not. Using those labels as credentials is incredibly useless.

in the context it is relevant. For a doctor and scientist to admit to having an experience with God and believing in God is a big step imo.

For the love of all that is decent, would people please clarify which god they're talking about? There are an awful lot of them. Specifying is of the utmost relevance.

There is only one.

Read the book. He did not see God but came very close to it and felt its presence. He said it wss the most beautiful feeling in the world to be there. He also said God loves each of us and our fears about loosing connection with God are groundless. It's impossible, we are always connected.

This is true. Please read the book before commenting further. There's no point in fighting over definitions or Eben's motivations if you haven't read the book. I found it ecumenical and sent to to friends of all religious backgrounds.

I did too! Sent it to a no. of friends w/ notation "It's short and it's ecumencal". BTW, Eben is young. I really wish people who have not read the book would shut up. It's like writing a restaurant review without ever dining there.

[Anonymous]

Eben's C.V. - pretty damn impressive.
http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/curriculum-vitae-0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time to read 9 pages, but for what it's worth, I nearly died. I was a flatliner for nearly a minute. I saw absolutely nothing. Maybe other people have different experiences, but I saw no evidence of heaven, a light, anything like that.

Must have been Purgatory.

My (Catholic) pastor had a definition/explanation of purgatory that has always made me think differently about purgatory. The old line of thinking was that your soul could spend years and years in "purgatory" in preparation for entry into heaven. The amount of "time" your soul spent there depended on the level of purgation that was needed for your sould to be completely cleansed and thus worthy of entry into heaven. My pastor explained that he though purgatory was not at all defined by time and was simply an event wherein your sould is completely surrounded by the love of God and knowing this, you would feel, in addition to the overwhelming sense of love, some guilt/remorse for the sins you'd committed as each of those sins is, in a way, a rejection of God's love.

I hope he is right. It sounds like a better deal than years of sitting around waiting for a ticket into the pearly gates!!

But purgatory is a CAtholic Construct @ 1120-1160 A.D. and is not in bible. Same with Limbo with the R.C. Church is now backing away from. Both constructs were used to fill coffers because everyone was happy to pay for Masses and Indulgences for their dead in Purg. or unchristened babies in limbo.

[Anonymous]

And a pretty damn impressive wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_III. 16.18, you do realize there are five Eben Alexander's right? In just his own family. And you do realize there are 4,920 reviews of his book on Amazon.com and you pick out ONE and posted it here wihtout checking his wikipedia page or C.V.?

And, yes, I read the book, which I bet most of you did not. Can't judge as you are all preaching without putting in the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time to read 9 pages, but for what it's worth, I nearly died. I was a flatliner for nearly a minute. I saw absolutely nothing. Maybe other people have different experiences, but I saw no evidence of heaven, a light, anything like that.

Must have been Purgatory.

My (Catholic) pastor had a definition/explanation of purgatory that has always made me think differently about purgatory. The old line of thinking was that your soul could spend years and years in "purgatory" in preparation for entry into heaven. The amount of "time" your soul spent there depended on the level of purgation that was needed for your sould to be completely cleansed and thus worthy of entry into heaven. My pastor explained that he though purgatory was not at all defined by time and was simply an event wherein your sould is completely surrounded by the love of God and knowing this, you would feel, in addition to the overwhelming sense of love, some guilt/remorse for the sins you'd committed as each of those sins is, in a way, a rejection of God's love.

I hope he is right. It sounds like a better deal than years of sitting around waiting for a ticket into the pearly gates!!

But purgatory is a CAtholic Construct @ 1120-1160 A.D. and is not in bible. Same with Limbo with the R.C. Church is now backing away from. Both constructs were used to fill coffers because everyone was happy to pay for Masses and Indulgences for their dead in Purg. or unchristened babies in limbo.

Where is the phrase "Holy Trinity" in the bible? I guess that is a "Catholic Construct" too. There are plenty more such examples. The Church existed before the bible. Read Acts of the Apostles sometime.