Shah's of Sunset-thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Because educated, down to earth, analytical people do not make for an entertaining reality show!
There are lots and lots if educated, down to earth Italians - but they weren't cast for Jersey Shore either!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because educated, down to earth, analytical people do not make for an entertaining reality show!
There are lots and lots if educated, down to earth Italians - but they weren't cast for Jersey Shore either!

I do agree with you, but the show must depict the majority, not a small crazy group! For non-Iranians, it's OK! because they need something to watch! but for most of the Iranians (including the educated, down to earth, analytical), it's a tragedy not entertainment!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As another PP who is married to an Iranian, I'd like to know why you seem so ANGRY. You seem to really have a chip on your shoulder towards the Iranian culture. Why do you care so much about what they call themselves?? Who cares!

I'm married to an Iranian, and I've certainly met Iranians of all types over the years. I can honestly say that the vast majority of the Iranians I'm lucky to call my friends are some of the most highly educated, introspective and KIND people I've ever known. They're well-traveled, open to different cultures and religions, and full of life. Every single one is disgusted over what's happened in their country politically.

For anyone who's interested in learning how Iran came to be in the situation it's in today, I highly recommend the book "All the Shah's Men". http://www.amazon.com/All-Shahs-Men-American-Middle/dp/0471265179. I also recommend a fantastic movie: "Peresepolis": http://www.sonyclassics.com/persepolis/

As far as the plastic surgery comments above, I'd just like to point out that the U.S. is by FAR the country with the highest rate of plastic surgery. Brazil follows.

23:23 here, I want to know because I want to be informed. There is a lot of incorrect information on the internet, so why not ask someone posting that is informed on this topic? I come from an area that people were either white or black and we were never taught that Asian meant more than simply Chinese. I want to teach my own children more about the world and its people. I would have simply classified all Iranians as White prior to this post had I not known that this is incorrect. When you come from being taught that anyone who is not black is white it helps to increase your knowledge on race.

Sorry, my post was directed at the PP who claims to be married to the "half-Iranian", not you.

I'm the one you are referring to. You know, my husband and I were up late tonight just talking about various things and I began to tell him about this thread. I told him about your post and other posts on here. He was so put off that he asked me if I would consider not writing on this thread anymore. I think like many people from different countries, they are highly sensitive and defensive about anything negative said about their country or their people. But if all anyone does is talk about how great their culture is, how great their people are, it becomes hard to discern the truth and truly learn about that culture or it's people. It would be better if people of that country were more objective and more forthcoming. The public becomes more educated and in many cases may also become more understanding. For example, I heard on NPR once that Iranians have great pride because ancient Persia was once such a vast and powerful civilization. They aren't anymore, but they don't want that to ever be forgotten by the international community. As such, one guest on NPR said it would be unwise to use tough tactics in dealing Iran and instead suggested that the U.S. use a diplomatic approach that paid respect to their history to effect change with Iran. The other poster that wrote that the reason women get so much plastic surgery in Iran (particularly nose jobs) is because of the modesty laws requiring women to cover everything except their face, makes me sympathize with the women living there rather than perceive them as superficial, western-white-caucasian wannabe's. When I questioned the visitor from Iran about the oppressive laws against homosexuals and adulterous women, it seemed as if she wanted to answer me but could not (perhaps due to government monitoring of internet activity?). It made me sympathize with her rather than than perceive her to be a supporter of such oppressive laws. So by asking such questions and getting more honest answers, I, too, am becoming more informed. As far as the bigot is concerned and other offensive replies, they won't change my opinion.

So you're only right in one sense - both my half Iranian husband and I have a few things we are angry about with the Iranian culture, laws, and behavior at times. I don't like the way they treat homosexuals, adulterous women, and how Ashura is observed with the self flagellation. Why did the government have to ban self flagellation? Presumably because if they didn't, it would continue and people would injure themselves or their children too much. I don't like how oppressive the modesty laws are for women. I don't like how so many Iranians want the world to believe they are white caucasian and strive for that western appearance (as evidenced by the kind of nose jobs they get). Iranians are generally quite successful and intelligent people TODAY. So still not understanding why the need to perpetually remind the world that they descended from the powerful Persian civilization from years past. AND do we have people who hate homosexuals here in the U.S. or people who get plastic surgery? Yes, but our laws don't condone oppressing them or punishing them. And the plastic surgery is something Iranian women still do here in the U.S. where there are no modesty laws oppressing them. So I wonder if there is a dislike for one's own ethnic features, which is sad. It means western influence has a profound effect on the way people of other cultures feel about themselves.

Just being objective and honest would be more educational and informative for us than to only talk about all the positives of the culture.

Are you suffering from a affective disorder? You accuse Iranians of being too proud and then you say they betray their culture and ethnicity by trying to mimic westerns. S

It's "suffer from an affective disorder, not 'suffering from a affective disorder', first of all. And no, I do not suffer from it. The excessive pride is a result, I think, of deep insecurity, which is why on the on hand they keep referencing their ancient great civilization of times past but on the other hand they try to mimic westerners. The excessive materialism, the excessive drinking of the wealthy Iranians may just be a testament to their insecurity and attempt to show westerners that they're just as modern if not more modern than them. It is sad though.

First you said that Persian's are extinct, multiple Iranians pointed out your error. You even got a detailed account over how they in-fact exist and together make up to largest ethnic group and how Persian culture dominates Iran and influenced many other surrounding countries. For example Persian is the official language in Iran and spoken in many neighboring countries (except the Arabic ones) and Persian rituals such as Nowruz (Persian New Year) is celebrated in many countries in Asia and some parts of Europe. Btw, another name for the indo-european languages is indo-iranian. But again, according to you the vast Persian Empire doesn't exist anymore so they can't exist in any form or shape, neither ethnically or culturally.

The last time I checked the world map the Persian Empire wasn't there. They may be people who are descendants from Persians but as I said before, all Iranians are not Persian and not everyone in what was once known as Persia can be considered Persian. I doubt Iraqi's and Afghan's would want to be called Persian today.

You also talked about about "arab Islam" being better compared to the "Iranian" version, who allows stoning of adulterers and perform self-flagellation. Really arab Islam is better? So I guess Saudi is better where just a few months ago a man was decapitated in a public square because he was accused and convicted for sorcery/witchcraft?! Saudi Arabia, the only country where females are forbidden to drive a car by law? Or Pakistan (a non-arab country with the arab version of Islam) which forces the rape victims to marry their offenders? Not to mention the fact that self-flagellation during Ashura in Iran has very few participants and mostly a show of force for the regime and usually just consists of ceremonial chest-hitting with their open hand. Maybe you are sunni muslim arab that loves your religion, but I have news for you, all 3 big religions suck, what you think circumcision is not abuse? and not to mention the barbaric female form that occurs in many arab-Islamic countries. Islam is a particular sinister religion. So suck on that.

I never said Arab Islam was 'better.' I pointed out some problems with the Shi'ite interpretation though. I never said the entire religion sucks. I also said Iranians seem to follow a different interpretation from the original Islam, which originated in Saudi Arabia. I don't agree with S. Arabia's interpretation of Islam either. I'm not discussing Saudi Arabia because this thread isn't about Saudi Arabia, it's about Iranian culture, behavior, beliefs. All three big religions suck? Sorry, I'm a Muslim but I don't agree that all three big religions suck. I have great respect for all three big religions. You sound like you have a lot of issues. You need a valium. Calm yourself.

Than you questioned their ethnicity because most Iranians say they are Caucasian, and as seen here lots say they are Caucasian but do not identify themselves as white in the same manner as Europeans. I don't know what motivates your hate, but it's a fact that most Iranians are Caucasian, and the majority is not Semitic. It's not a preference, it's a fact, people of the Caucasus region are from a area between Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, Iran and down to the Caspian sea which is part of Iran (that's the area called Caucasus!). But you seem to confuse this with skin color.

I mentioned that my father in law had instructed all three of his kids to state they were caucasian/ white if asked in school. He also would do the same. He associated caucasian with white.

Why do you hate the fact that Iranian women perform beauty surgeries, and what makes you think they make themselves look more "white"? More importantly this is insight on how diluted your outlook on the world is, you actually justify your twisted logic because you feel "pity for them". You are the only one who has been putting this drivel out. Surgeries are popular, but you seem to say that all Iranian women undergo surgery because all of them have stereotypical big noses. Also, according to you any surgery where they would strive for a "smaller" nose means they are ashamed of their ethnicity. I just spelled out everything you said, it's so unintelligent that I don't need to comment it any further.

I think this one's a no brainer. You can deny it all you want, but it's a fact that Iranian women get a lot of nose jobs and they try to get rid of their ethnic nose in favor of the western nose. Sorry if you don't want to admit this.

Iranian women are far more integrated into society than many other countries, even under the Islamic dictatorship, over 70% of our university students are females. Iran has among the highest female to male ratio in higher level education, while for example USA ranks in about 60th. Iranian women are independent, educated and intelligent, and once this regime is gone they can be even more successful. I have no problem with some of them also taking time to pursue more "superficial" activities.

It's apples and oranges.

You seem to confuse the laws imposed by the regime, which is a dictatorship, with the Iranian people. Despite the fact that many posters have repeatedly politely asked you to make the distinction. The barbaric punishments such as hanging or death if you convert from Islam are imposed by the regime, and the most barbaric ones such as stoning did not exist until 1983, and handed out very rarely and even they have now agree to remove it from legislation now. A small victory for human rights lawyers in Iran. But in Arab Islam countries and non-arab countries that follow "arabic islam", as you put it, decapitation for stuff like sorcery occurs and stoning happens by mobs, and doesn't even need to be handed out as court punishment.

You called several people bigoted but you self make bigoted remarks repeatedly.Instead of realizing that changes such as banning stoning (even if not used) or limit on flagellation (which mostly payed supporters of the regime perfom) are the small fruits of the hard labor Iranian human rights/international law lawyers have pushed through (such as noble-prize winner Ms. Shirin Ebadi) you just assume these are initiatives the Iranian regime has put forth to protect the barbaric Iranians from themselves.

It's true that homosexuality is still taboo among regular Iranians, but again, not to the same degree as in Arabic countries. Gays exist in Iran, in what I would say in their own sub-culture, most inside and outside Iran usually accepted by their families. But being openly gay means you might risk execution by the regime, just another example of laws that noone voted for. But among regular Iranians its about as taboo as it is among some eastern Europeans or some more conservative Americans.

Finally, do you also have a problem with western/American culture? What's wrong with Iranians striving to be more like Americans? Many regular Iranians admire the USA, and why shouldn't they? They admire the success such a young country has had and they admire the liberties and freedoms their citizens enjoy. But you are such segregationist that you trying to imply that any culture that undergoes changes, borrowing from others, would mean they are ashamed of their origins. USA is influencing many countries by many ways, for good or bad (say by Hollywood), just like the Persian Empire..Roman Empire..British Empire did before them.

Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As another PP who is married to an Iranian, I'd like to know why you seem so ANGRY. You seem to really have a chip on your shoulder towards the Iranian culture. Why do you care so much about what they call themselves?? Who cares!

I'm married to an Iranian, and I've certainly met Iranians of all types over the years. I can honestly say that the vast majority of the Iranians I'm lucky to call my friends are some of the most highly educated, introspective and KIND people I've ever known. They're well-traveled, open to different cultures and religions, and full of life. Every single one is disgusted over what's happened in their country politically.

For anyone who's interested in learning how Iran came to be in the situation it's in today, I highly recommend the book "All the Shah's Men". http://www.amazon.com/All-Shahs-Men-American-Middle/dp/0471265179. I also recommend a fantastic movie: "Peresepolis": http://www.sonyclassics.com/persepolis/

As far as the plastic surgery comments above, I'd just like to point out that the U.S. is by FAR the country with the highest rate of plastic surgery. Brazil follows.

23:23 here, I want to know because I want to be informed. There is a lot of incorrect information on the internet, so why not ask someone posting that is informed on this topic? I come from an area that people were either white or black and we were never taught that Asian meant more than simply Chinese. I want to teach my own children more about the world and its people. I would have simply classified all Iranians as White prior to this post had I not known that this is incorrect. When you come from being taught that anyone who is not black is white it helps to increase your knowledge on race.

Sorry, my post was directed at the PP who claims to be married to the "half-Iranian", not you.

I'm the one you are referring to. You know, my husband and I were up late tonight just talking about various things and I began to tell him about this thread. I told him about your post and other posts on here. He was so put off that he asked me if I would consider not writing on this thread anymore. I think like many people from different countries, they are highly sensitive and defensive about anything negative said about their country or their people. But if all anyone does is talk about how great their culture is, how great their people are, it becomes hard to discern the truth and truly learn about that culture or it's people. It would be better if people of that country were more objective and more forthcoming. The public becomes more educated and in many cases may also become more understanding. For example, I heard on NPR once that Iranians have great pride because ancient Persia was once such a vast and powerful civilization. They aren't anymore, but they don't want that to ever be forgotten by the international community. As such, one guest on NPR said it would be unwise to use tough tactics in dealing Iran and instead suggested that the U.S. use a diplomatic approach that paid respect to their history to effect change with Iran. The other poster that wrote that the reason women get so much plastic surgery in Iran (particularly nose jobs) is because of the modesty laws requiring women to cover everything except their face, makes me sympathize with the women living there rather than perceive them as superficial, western-white-caucasian wannabe's. When I questioned the visitor from Iran about the oppressive laws against homosexuals and adulterous women, it seemed as if she wanted to answer me but could not (perhaps due to government monitoring of internet activity?). It made me sympathize with her rather than than perceive her to be a supporter of such oppressive laws. So by asking such questions and getting more honest answers, I, too, am becoming more informed. As far as the bigot is concerned and other offensive replies, they won't change my opinion.

So you're only right in one sense - both my half Iranian husband and I have a few things we are angry about with the Iranian culture, laws, and behavior at times. I don't like the way they treat homosexuals, adulterous women, and how Ashura is observed with the self flagellation. Why did the government have to ban self flagellation? Presumably because if they didn't, it would continue and people would injure themselves or their children too much. I don't like how oppressive the modesty laws are for women. I don't like how so many Iranians want the world to believe they are white caucasian and strive for that western appearance (as evidenced by the kind of nose jobs they get). Iranians are generally quite successful and intelligent people TODAY. So still not understanding why the need to perpetually remind the world that they descended from the powerful Persian civilization from years past. AND do we have people who hate homosexuals here in the U.S. or people who get plastic surgery? Yes, but our laws don't condone oppressing them or punishing them. And the plastic surgery is something Iranian women still do here in the U.S. where there are no modesty laws oppressing them. So I wonder if there is a dislike for one's own ethnic features, which is sad. It means western influence has a profound effect on the way people of other cultures feel about themselves.

Just being objective and honest would be more educational and informative for us than to only talk about all the positives of the culture.

Are you suffering from a affective disorder? You accuse Iranians of being too proud and then you say they betray their culture and ethnicity by trying to mimic westerns.

First you said that Persian's are extinct, multiple Iranians pointed out your error. You even got a detailed account over how they in-fact exist and together make up to largest ethnic group and how Persian culture dominates Iran and influenced many other surrounding countries. For example Persian is the official language in Iran and spoken in many neighboring countries (except the Arabic ones) and Persian rituals such as Nowruz (Persian New Year) is celebrated in many countries in Asia and some parts of Europe. Btw, another name for the indo-european languages is indo-iranian. But again, according to you the vast Persian Empire doesn't exist anymore so they can't exist in any form or shape, neither ethnically or culturally.

You also talked about about "arab Islam" being better compared to the "Iranian" version, who allows stoning of adulterers and perform self-flagellation. Really arab Islam is better? So I guess Saudi is better where just a few months ago a man was decapitated in a public square because he was accused and convicted for sorcery/witchcraft?! Saudi Arabia, the only country where females are forbidden to drive a car by law? Or Pakistan (a non-arab country with the arab version of Islam) which forces the rape victims to marry their offenders? Not to mention the fact that self-flagellation during Ashura in Iran has very few participants and mostly a show of force for the regime and usually just consists of ceremonial chest-hitting with their open hand. Maybe you are sunni muslim arab that loves your religion, but I have news for you, all 3 big religions suck, what you think circumcision is not abuse? and not to mention the barbaric female form that occurs in many arab-Islamic countries. Islam is a particular sinister religion. So suck on that.

Than you questioned their ethnicity because most Iranians say they are Caucasian, and as seen here lots say they are Caucasian but do not identify themselves as white in the same manner as Europeans. I don't know what motivates your hate, but it's a fact that most Iranians are Caucasian, and the majority is not Semitic. It's not a preference, it's a fact, people of the Caucasus region are from a area between Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, Iran and down to the Caspian sea which is part of Iran (that's the area called Caucasus!). But you seem to confuse this with skin color.

Why do you hate the fact that Iranian women perform beauty surgeries, and what makes you think they make themselves look more "white"? More importantly this is insight on how diluted your outlook on the world is, you actually justify your twisted logic because you feel "pity for them". You are the only one who has been putting this drivel out. Surgeries are popular, but you seem to say that all Iranian women undergo surgery because all of them have stereotypical big noses. Also, according to you any surgery where they would strive for a "smaller" nose means they are ashamed of their ethnicity. I just spelled out everything you said, it's so unintelligent that I don't need to comment it any further.

Iranian women are far more integrated into society than many other countries, even under the Islamic dictatorship, over 70% of our university students are females. Iran has among the highest female to male ratio in higher level education, while for example USA ranks in about 60th. Iranian women are independent, educated and intelligent, and once this regime is gone they can be even more successful. I have no problem with some of them also taking time to pursue more "superficial" activities.

You seem to confuse the laws imposed by the regime, which is a dictatorship, with the Iranian people. Despite the fact that many posters have repeatedly politely asked you to make the distinction. The barbaric punishments such as hanging or death if you convert from Islam are imposed by the regime, and the most barbaric ones such as stoning did not exist until 1983, and handed out very rarely and even they have now agree to remove it from legislation now. A small victory for human rights lawyers in Iran. But in Arab Islam countries and non-arab countries that follow "arabic islam", as you put it, decapitation for stuff like sorcery occurs and stoning happens by mobs, and doesn't even need to be handed out as court punishment.

You called several people bigoted but you self make bigoted remarks repeatedly.Instead of realizing that changes such as banning stoning (even if not used) or limit on flagellation (which mostly payed supporters of the regime perfom) are the small fruits of the hard labor Iranian human rights/international law lawyers have pushed through (such as noble-prize winner Ms. Shirin Ebadi) you just assume these are initiatives the Iranian regime has put forth to protect the barbaric Iranians from themselves.

It's true that homosexuality is still taboo among regular Iranians, but again, not to the same degree as in Arabic countries. Gays exist in Iran, in what I would say in their own sub-culture, most inside and outside Iran usually accepted by their families. But being openly gay means you might risk execution by the regime, just another example of laws that noone voted for. But among regular Iranians its about as taboo as it is among some eastern Europeans or some more conservative Americans.

Finally, do you also have a problem with western/American culture? What's wrong with Iranians striving to be more like Americans? Many regular Iranians admire the USA, and why shouldn't they? They admire the success such a young country has had and they admire the liberties and freedoms their citizens enjoy. But you are such segregationist that you trying to imply that any culture that undergoes changes, borrowing from others, would mean they are ashamed of their origins. USA is influencing many countries by many ways, for good or bad (say by Hollywood), just like the Persian Empire..Roman Empire..British Empire did before them.

Well said - thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As another PP who is married to an Iranian, I'd like to know why you seem so ANGRY. You seem to really have a chip on your shoulder towards the Iranian culture. Why do you care so much about what they call themselves?? Who cares!

I'm married to an Iranian, and I've certainly met Iranians of all types over the years. I can honestly say that the vast majority of the Iranians I'm lucky to call my friends are some of the most highly educated, introspective and KIND people I've ever known. They're well-traveled, open to different cultures and religions, and full of life. Every single one is disgusted over what's happened in their country politically.

For anyone who's interested in learning how Iran came to be in the situation it's in today, I highly recommend the book "All the Shah's Men". http://www.amazon.com/All-Shahs-Men-American-Middle/dp/0471265179. I also recommend a fantastic movie: "Peresepolis": http://www.sonyclassics.com/persepolis/

As far as the plastic surgery comments above, I'd just like to point out that the U.S. is by FAR the country with the highest rate of plastic surgery. Brazil follows.

23:23 here, I want to know because I want to be informed. There is a lot of incorrect information on the internet, so why not ask someone posting that is informed on this topic? I come from an area that people were either white or black and we were never taught that Asian meant more than simply Chinese. I want to teach my own children more about the world and its people. I would have simply classified all Iranians as White prior to this post had I not known that this is incorrect. When you come from being taught that anyone who is not black is white it helps to increase your knowledge on race.

Sorry, my post was directed at the PP who claims to be married to the "half-Iranian", not you.

I'm the one you are referring to. You know, my husband and I were up late tonight just talking about various things and I began to tell him about this thread. I told him about your post and other posts on here. He was so put off that he asked me if I would consider not writing on this thread anymore. I think like many people from different countries, they are highly sensitive and defensive about anything negative said about their country or their people. But if all anyone does is talk about how great their culture is, how great their people are, it becomes hard to discern the truth and truly learn about that culture or it's people. It would be better if people of that country were more objective and more forthcoming. The public becomes more educated and in many cases may also become more understanding. For example, I heard on NPR once that Iranians have great pride because ancient Persia was once such a vast and powerful civilization. They aren't anymore, but they don't want that to ever be forgotten by the international community. As such, one guest on NPR said it would be unwise to use tough tactics in dealing Iran and instead suggested that the U.S. use a diplomatic approach that paid respect to their history to effect change with Iran. The other poster that wrote that the reason women get so much plastic surgery in Iran (particularly nose jobs) is because of the modesty laws requiring women to cover everything except their face, makes me sympathize with the women living there rather than perceive them as superficial, western-white-caucasian wannabe's. When I questioned the visitor from Iran about the oppressive laws against homosexuals and adulterous women, it seemed as if she wanted to answer me but could not (perhaps due to government monitoring of internet activity?). It made me sympathize with her rather than than perceive her to be a supporter of such oppressive laws. So by asking such questions and getting more honest answers, I, too, am becoming more informed. As far as the bigot is concerned and other offensive replies, they won't change my opinion.

So you're only right in one sense - both my half Iranian husband and I have a few things we are angry about with the Iranian culture, laws, and behavior at times. I don't like the way they treat homosexuals, adulterous women, and how Ashura is observed with the self flagellation. Why did the government have to ban self flagellation? Presumably because if they didn't, it would continue and people would injure themselves or their children too much. I don't like how oppressive the modesty laws are for women. I don't like how so many Iranians want the world to believe they are white caucasian and strive for that western appearance (as evidenced by the kind of nose jobs they get). Iranians are generally quite successful and intelligent people TODAY. So still not understanding why the need to perpetually remind the world that they descended from the powerful Persian civilization from years past. AND do we have people who hate homosexuals here in the U.S. or people who get plastic surgery? Yes, but our laws don't condone oppressing them or punishing them. And the plastic surgery is something Iranian women still do here in the U.S. where there are no modesty laws oppressing them. So I wonder if there is a dislike for one's own ethnic features, which is sad. It means western influence has a profound effect on the way people of other cultures feel about themselves.

Just being objective and honest would be more educational and informative for us than to only talk about all the positives of the culture.

Are you suffering from a affective disorder? You accuse Iranians of being too proud and then you say they betray their culture and ethnicity by trying to mimic westerns.

First you said that Persian's are extinct, multiple Iranians pointed out your error. You even got a detailed account over how they in-fact exist and together make up to largest ethnic group and how Persian culture dominates Iran and influenced many other surrounding countries. For example Persian is the official language in Iran and spoken in many neighboring countries (except the Arabic ones) and Persian rituals such as Nowruz (Persian New Year) is celebrated in many countries in Asia and some parts of Europe. Btw, another name for the indo-european languages is indo-iranian. But again, according to you the vast Persian Empire doesn't exist anymore so they can't exist in any form or shape, neither ethnically or culturally.

You also talked about about "arab Islam" being better compared to the "Iranian" version, who allows stoning of adulterers and perform self-flagellation. Really arab Islam is better? So I guess Saudi is better where just a few months ago a man was decapitated in a public square because he was accused and convicted for sorcery/witchcraft?! Saudi Arabia, the only country where females are forbidden to drive a car by law? Or Pakistan (a non-arab country with the arab version of Islam) which forces the rape victims to marry their offenders? Not to mention the fact that self-flagellation during Ashura in Iran has very few participants and mostly a show of force for the regime and usually just consists of ceremonial chest-hitting with their open hand. Maybe you are sunni muslim arab that loves your religion, but I have news for you, all 3 big religions suck, what you think circumcision is not abuse? and not to mention the barbaric female form that occurs in many arab-Islamic countries. Islam is a particular sinister religion. So suck on that.

Than you questioned their ethnicity because most Iranians say they are Caucasian, and as seen here lots say they are Caucasian but do not identify themselves as white in the same manner as Europeans. I don't know what motivates your hate, but it's a fact that most Iranians are Caucasian, and the majority is not Semitic. It's not a preference, it's a fact, people of the Caucasus region are from a area between Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, Iran and down to the Caspian sea which is part of Iran (that's the area called Caucasus!). But you seem to confuse this with skin color.

Why do you hate the fact that Iranian women perform beauty surgeries, and what makes you think they make themselves look more "white"? More importantly this is insight on how diluted your outlook on the world is, you actually justify your twisted logic because you feel "pity for them". You are the only one who has been putting this drivel out. Surgeries are popular, but you seem to say that all Iranian women undergo surgery because all of them have stereotypical big noses. Also, according to you any surgery where they would strive for a "smaller" nose means they are ashamed of their ethnicity. I just spelled out everything you said, it's so unintelligent that I don't need to comment it any further.

Iranian women are far more integrated into society than many other countries, even under the Islamic dictatorship, over 70% of our university students are females. Iran has among the highest female to male ratio in higher level education, while for example USA ranks in about 60th. Iranian women are independent, educated and intelligent, and once this regime is gone they can be even more successful. I have no problem with some of them also taking time to pursue more "superficial" activities.

You seem to confuse the laws imposed by the regime, which is a dictatorship, with the Iranian people. Despite the fact that many posters have repeatedly politely asked you to make the distinction. The barbaric punishments such as hanging or death if you convert from Islam are imposed by the regime, and the most barbaric ones such as stoning did not exist until 1983, and handed out very rarely and even they have now agree to remove it from legislation now. A small victory for human rights lawyers in Iran. But in Arab Islam countries and non-arab countries that follow "arabic islam", as you put it, decapitation for stuff like sorcery occurs and stoning happens by mobs, and doesn't even need to be handed out as court punishment.

You called several people bigoted but you self make bigoted remarks repeatedly.Instead of realizing that changes such as banning stoning (even if not used) or limit on flagellation (which mostly payed supporters of the regime perfom) are the small fruits of the hard labor Iranian human rights/international law lawyers have pushed through (such as noble-prize winner Ms. Shirin Ebadi) you just assume these are initiatives the Iranian regime has put forth to protect the barbaric Iranians from themselves.

It's true that homosexuality is still taboo among regular Iranians, but again, not to the same degree as in Arabic countries. Gays exist in Iran, in what I would say in their own sub-culture, most inside and outside Iran usually accepted by their families. But being openly gay means you might risk execution by the regime, just another example of laws that noone voted for. But among regular Iranians its about as taboo as it is among some eastern Europeans or some more conservative Americans.

Finally, do you also have a problem with western/American culture? What's wrong with Iranians striving to be more like Americans? Many regular Iranians admire the USA, and why shouldn't they? They admire the success such a young country has had and they admire the liberties and freedoms their citizens enjoy. But you are such segregationist that you trying to imply that any culture that undergoes changes, borrowing from others, would mean they are ashamed of their origins. USA is influencing many countries by many ways, for good or bad (say by Hollywood), just like the Persian Empire..Roman Empire..British Empire did before them.

Well said - thank you!

Totally agree! As we saw the poster you referred to turned out to be Sunni muslim/arab with jealousy issues. Pathetic to accuse others of betraying their culture because they are more successful at integrating in western societies than your kind is.

[Anonymous]

"Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough. "

Arguing with a Sunni/muslim or arab Muslim is pointless. Your grudge is that Iranians are not "faithful" to the same backward ways you are adhere to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough. "

Arguing with a Sunni/muslim or arab Muslim is pointless. Your grudge is that Iranians are not "faithful" to the same backward ways you are adhere to.

I'm an Iranian, I really don't understand what you modern people are talking about: "Iranians are betraying their cultures by trying to follow American culture". Then please tell me what is American culture and how it was formed. The culture of the United States is a Western culture which is highly influenced by Persian culture. It Influenced western culture through its influence upon Greek culture. With a long-standing and proud civilization, Persian culture is among the richest in the world. Throughout the history, this grand treasure of Persia was gradually transferred to eastern and western nations (For example Christmas has its origins in the ancient Persian Mithraic tradition of worshipping Mithra or Mehr). Iran's significant contribution into the world civilization in many respects is indispensable. And, of course, Iranians received many good things from other rich cultures too. It's OK! All the Iranians observe all their original customs, and in the meantime, try to live like a modern human not a modern American!
I think there is a modern culture which is derived from all rich cultures in the world and belongs to all modern people! Regardless of the race, religion and nationality of the people. Modern human can't limit herself/himself to a certain culture. Wherever you go is your motherland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The show is wretched! If I were Iranian, I'd be humiliated.

Do you have any Iranian friends? I love this show because I can relate.

I do not have a ton of Iranian friend, but one of my best friends is iranian and she is NOTHING like the people on the show. She is a professional career woman, unmarried, and financially takes care of her mother and grandparents.

She dresses normally and is very humble. She is extremely intelligent, well read, and has a fasciating story of how her family had to flee iran when the Shah fell.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but I have no friends like the trash on that show. You have friends like that? That says a lot about you.

How old are you both?

Me: Latina and 34
She: Iranian and 40

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough. "

Arguing with a Sunni/muslim or arab Muslim is pointless. Your grudge is that Iranians are not "faithful" to the same backward ways you are adhere to.

You are an oaf. I do not practice Sunni Islam, nor does my husband practice Shi'ite Islam. We don't observe Ashurra. We don't engage in self flagellation. I don't wear head covering. I don't condemn homosexuality. I don't think adulterous women should be stoned. I don't think women should be forbidden from driving alone. We celebrate Thanksgiving and Halloween. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter though. We pray and fast. We don't drink any alcohol or eat any pork. Most of my friends are non-Muslim. I We don't agree that the division should ever have been created as it goes against what we believe Allah intended. Allah never intended for Islam to be so divided. So this is not an argument between Sunni and Shi'ite, idiot. It was meant to be a frank discussion of Iranian views and beliefs and behavior. It's wealthy Iranians that embrace the western lifestyle (and not the positive aspects of western lifestyle, mind you, but rather the excessive drinking and materialism (and surgery-chiseled noses) which is embraced by only the fringe of western population). It's their way, of trying to show westerners that they are more 'modern' than them. It probably stems from a deep insecurity.

[Anonymous]

Didn't I say it was out of insecurity?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-692495.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough. "

Arguing with a Sunni/muslim or arab Muslim is pointless. Your grudge is that Iranians are not "faithful" to the same backward ways you are adhere to.

You are an oaf. I do not practice Sunni Islam, nor does my husband practice Shi'ite Islam. We don't observe Ashurra. We don't engage in self flagellation. I don't wear head covering. I don't condemn homosexuality. I don't think adulterous women should be stoned. I don't think women should be forbidden from driving alone. We celebrate Thanksgiving and Halloween. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter though. We pray and fast. We don't drink any alcohol or eat any pork. Most of my friends are non-Muslim. I We don't agree that the division should ever have been created as it goes against what we believe Allah intended. Allah never intended for Islam to be so divided. So this is not an argument between Sunni and Shi'ite, idiot. It was meant to be a frank discussion of Iranian views and beliefs and behavior. It's wealthy Iranians that embrace the western lifestyle (and not the positive aspects of western lifestyle, mind you, but rather the excessive drinking and materialism (and surgery-chiseled noses) which is embraced by only the fringe of western population). It's their way, of trying to show westerners that they are more 'modern' than them. It probably stems from a deep insecurity.

I think all of our points were proven by this post. Enough said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Sigh. I'm done with you. You and your arguments are irrelevant. Arguing with you is like arguing with a high school lawyer wannabe. Enough. "

Arguing with a Sunni/muslim or arab Muslim is pointless. Your grudge is that Iranians are not "faithful" to the same backward ways you are adhere to.

You are an oaf. I do not practice Sunni Islam, nor does my husband practice Shi'ite Islam. We don't observe Ashurra. We don't engage in self flagellation. I don't wear head covering. I don't condemn homosexuality. I don't think adulterous women should be stoned. I don't think women should be forbidden from driving alone. We celebrate Thanksgiving and Halloween. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter though. We pray and fast. We don't drink any alcohol or eat any pork. Most of my friends are non-Muslim. I We don't agree that the division should ever have been created as it goes against what we believe Allah intended. Allah never intended for Islam to be so divided. So this is not an argument between Sunni and Shi'ite, idiot. It was meant to be a frank discussion of Iranian views and beliefs and behavior. It's wealthy Iranians that embrace the western lifestyle (and not the positive aspects of western lifestyle, mind you, but rather the excessive drinking and materialism (and surgery-chiseled noses) which is embraced by only the fringe of western population). It's their way, of trying to show westerners that they are more 'modern' than them. It probably stems from a deep insecurity.

I think all of our points were proven by this post. Enough said.

Yes, that the devote Muslim/arab attacks Iranian culture when the topic was a TV-show, not the historical and ethical legitimacy. The person questioned the legitimacy of the Persian ethnic group, from first denying their existence and then moving onto saying they are only a minority (actually the majority), or just ancestral roots. Despite people pointing out the facts, you ask where is Persia on the map, failing to realize the nonsense of your logic. Swaying between arguments in order to promote your own narrow minded logic, "I have non-Muslim friends" just like the racist saying "I can't be a racist, I have black friends!". You try to rationalize your way out belligerent comments by publishing some link from a news story. How many articles do you want me to give you about the contrary nature of the Quran? Or hell, I do you one better, I'll take out suras that preach hate and violence. This is the reason for your resentment, Persian/Iranian culture has rich and vibrant history, based on a multiethnic platform. Your kind cling to your faith because that's all your culture has, the ideas spanning out from desert dwellers. Well, if I only produce one of those suras my argument must be true right? This is why Iranians are turning away from Islam, it is intolerant in all shapes and forms, just as you have proven here, and you are just a vanilla-muslim. I been silent but you resentment for Persian culture is ridiculous, and is solely based on your own impotence in life. So why don't stop commenting here, stop watching the TV show, leave the uber-rich persians and all their faults and western-ideology, and if you resent the west you can always move back to where you are from.

-And I'm not Persian, just good neighbor to them.

[Anonymous]

It shouldn't matter if I'm Christian, Jew, or Muslim or if I'm Sunni or Shi'ite. It's hard to take you seriously now because you're biased. Some asked about the prevalence of plastic surgery, some asked why they call themselves Persian, some asked about the materialism, and if the poster was Sunni, then you deemed the question no longer had legitimacy and required an answer. I think the majority of folks here have said that the depiction of the Iranians on Sunset was that of materialistic, superficial people. Many people also do wonder why the characters on this show keep use the word Iranian synonymously with Persian. So the public is trying to find out if it's a true depiction and more about the real Persian culture and people.

And honestly, though you seemed to want to know and care about what my religion is, I couldn't care less about yours. Here are excerpts from a Marine manual on "Cultural Intelligence for Military Operations: Iraq." It address another issue - the confusion between "Persians" and "Iranians." They are not to be used synonymously nor are they one and the same necessarily. Almost half of Iran is not Persian but quite heterogeneous.


http://iranian.com/main/blog/ari-siletz/what-us-marines-think-ethnic-persians-us-military-manual-iran

by Ari Siletz
10-Aug-2011

The following are excerpts from a US Marines manual on Iran titled "Cultural Intelligence for Military Operations: Iran." The section excerpted deals specifically with Iran's Persian ethnicity.

1. This product is designed to help U.S. military forces understand the mindset of foreign cultures. Emphasis is placed on cultural factors with the greatest impact on military operations...The Cultural Intelligence Studies are in-depth comprehensive reports written for every significant ethnic group within a country.

2. Persians are the largest and most prosperous ethnic group in Iran, making up 53 percent of the population, or approximately 35 million people[this says that the report was written circa 2002]...The ethnic Persian identity is not the same as the national Iranian identity, but the two are closely aligned...Many ethnic groups in Iran are not Persian by descent, but closely identity themselves with Iranian identity through the commonality of their culture, particularly in speaking Persian or its sister languages or practicing Shi'ite Islam.

3. Persians are members of an Aryan ethnic group who have ruled and dominated the Iranian state for much of the past 2,500 years. Persians are ethnically distinct from Arab and Turkic groups of the Middle East and Central Asia...Persians continue to think of themselves as a special people situated at the center of the universe.

4. Since Persians have been the dominant ethnic group in Iran for several millennia, many Persians do not consider themselves to have an identity distinct from their affiliation with Iran.

5.Maintaining their authenticity and independence from foreign influence is a central theme of Persian culture.

6. Contemporary Persians accept Islam as an essential part of their identity, but they do not equate Islam with Arab culture. Persians consider Arab culture distinctly inferior to their own.

7. Justice, the just ruler, and a just society are fundamental concepts in Persian culture. The Persian meaning of justice is the preservation of balance and order in society [report clarifies the Iranian concept of justice with the Iranian proverb "Opression applied equally is justice." Zolm e belsavi adl ast"].

8. Persians tend to look to those of higher authority and status for direction, control, and protection.

9.Persians view poets as sources of wisdom and often use poetry, mystical tales, and proverbs, rather than political and social theories, to orient themselves to social and political events and change in society.

10. Persians more than any other ethnic group, gain the most from the wealthiest sector of Iran’s economy, the oil industry.

11. Persians tend to have dark, almond-shaped eyes, black, wavy hair, and oval faces with a pale olive complexion. Persians tend to be lighter skinned than Arabs, and they often have long narrow faces and noses.

12. The Persian historical memory embraces two diverse points of origin and reference...The first starting point extends back 2,500 years to the beginning of the ancient Iranian Empire; the second originates in the introduction of Islam to Iranian territory in the 7th century.

13, Though Islam had a profound and lasting impact on Persian identity, the world of Islam did not trump or supersede Persian identity.

14. The ancient Iranian Empire (550 to 331 B.C.) is remembered as a period in which Persian cultural achievements, military might, and cultural values of tolerance and just rule under law first came to world prominence.

15. Several enduring themes of Persian culture were forged in the ancient Iranian Empire. The first theme is that a powerful and charismatic king rules in the name of justice [note that the report was written more than 20 years after the revolution]. This king maintains peace and loyalty through tolerance of the diverse peoples living within the empire. The second theme is the continuity of a distinct and distinguished culture in which the monarchy plays an important role. The third theme is a sense of nationhood rooted in the continuity of a distinct cultural identity gained by unifying the peoples of Iran.

16. Persians consider the second Iranian empire of the 3rd to 7th centuries (224 to 641 AD), ruled by the Sassanid dynasty, as a period in which Persian culture flourished after centuries of foreign rule.

17. While contemporary Persians accept the conversion to Islam as an essential part of their identity, they harbor anger toward Arabs for having conquered them. Persians do not equate Islam with Arab culture, and they hold Arabs responsible for replacing a superior Persian culture in this period with a less civilized one.

18. They believe that without the Persian gifts of political organization and high culture, the Arabs alone would never have been able to sustain an Islamic civilization.

19. Contemporary Persians regard the third Iranian empire [Safavids] (1501 to 1736 A.D.) as the beginning of the modern era in Iran.

20. The [Persian] conversion to Shi’ism[during the Safavids] in Iran was [partly] motivated by its use as a symbolic assertion of Iranian identity and resistance to foreign domination. Shi’ism was in many ways consistent with older Iranian notions, deriving many of its customs and doctrines from ancient Zoroastrianism.

21. Shah Abbas I (1588 to 1629)... is beloved by Persians for restoring national pride and making the country strong and prosperous again.

22. Persians think of their interactions with the West as characterized by exploitation and humiliation.

23. Persians...became aware of the populist power of Shi’ite religious scholars, known as the ulama, in the 19th century. In this period [Qajars], the ulama positioned itself as standing up for the interests of the people against the monarchy’s corruption and greed.

24. In the eyes of Persians, the ruling dynasty lost its Persian farr (mystical right to rule) by profiting from the self-destructive sale of Iranian assets to foreign powers [referring to the Qajar].

25. Persians regard modernity with caution and skepticism because they associate it with unpopular dictatorships propped up by Western powers.

26. Brought to power by the British, Reza Pahlavi was a dictator who maintained an iron grip on Iranian political and cultural life. Many Persians believe that in forcibly secularizing and modernizing society, Reza Pahlavi diminished Iran’s proud Islamic and pre-Islamic traditions.

27. Mossadeq’s movement was supported by much of the population, including a large, popular base and a coalition of groups that held the common goal of nationalizing the oil industry, long dominated by the British. Iran’s clerics, however, saw Mossadeq as an ally of atheistic communists inthe Tudeh Party.

28. Iranians' attitudes to the Mossadeq era are deeply split...To nationalists, Mossadeq was the victim of an American and British coup...To more traditional and religious Iranians, however, Mossadeq was a communist stooge...The current regime prefers to focus on the role of Ayatollah Taleqani, an ally of Mossadeq, as the true hero of the nationalization movement.

29. Though viewed as progressive outside Iran, [Mohammad Reza] Shah put severe limits on political parties and public religious expression. As a result, many Persians view his reign as an oppressive dictatorship.

30. In an effort toward political centralization, the Shah introduced cultural changes that legally and socially elevated Persian culture and language. These changes discriminated against non-Persian ethnic communities...

31. The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini... remains one of the figures most beloved by Persians...Persians still respect Khomeini as the leader of the Revolution based on his reputation for incorruptibility and the resistance he demonstrated to foreign intervention...More than a decade after his death, Khomeini remains a beloved figure to most Persians, regardless of their views of the current regime.

32. Widespread corruption had increased socioeconomic disparities among ethnic groups and between urban and rural populations. A broad popular movement arose to express resentment of the small elite that benefited from its ties to the Shah.

33. Persians, like most Iranians, feel that the Iran-Iraq War was imposed on them by Saddam Hussein’s decision to invade Iran. They believe that Western powers gave Hussein a green light for the invasion in order to smother the 1979 Revolution in its infancy.

34. The scars of the Iran-Iraq War run deeply in Persian society. Persians believe they were abandoned by the world in an unjust war.

35. Ayatollah Khomeini seized the opportunity [the war] to consolidate his power by eliminating challenge and opposition from secular and leftist leaders of the Revolution.

36. Most Persians disapproved of the Shah’s close ties with the United States. They were put off by his Westernized appearance and manner, and by his perceived submission to foreign imperialism.

37. Persians are often nostalgic about the relative prosperity and personal freedom they had during the Shah’s reign, yet they simultaneously revere Ayatollah Khomeini and cherish Shi’i religious values.

38. Persians try to achieve an outer life that is modern, but retain their internal characteristics as authentically Persian. They perceive a danger that modernization...will lead to Westernization...

39. Persians strive to match technological progress with a spiritual sensibility. They try to differentiate between what is truly modern and beneficial from what is merely Western.

40. ...the fall of a regime or a leader comes as no surprise to a Persian.

41. Since Persians believe unfavorable conditions will inevitably change, this worldview undermines the motivation to attempt to change existing conditions. While this perception of historical experience does not establish confidence in a fixed order, Shi’ite religious teachings provide an alternative worldview for Persians by promising the existence of fundamental truths and an ultimate metaphysical reality.

42. The Islamic concept of [history] was brought during the Arab conquest and is still adhered to by strict Muslim clerics in Iran. It holds that the period in history before the arrival of Islam is jahilliya (age of ignorance), and as such it is of no value or importance. Persian culture reinterpreted this concept and gave it a distinctly Persian twist. Thus many Persians believe that Islam only became a great religion when it encountered Persian culture in the 7th century. Before that meeting of cultures, Islam was only the ignorance and Arab Bedouin superstitions.

43. Living in the heart of a cultural crossroads and open to foreign cultures, Persians consider themselves cosmopolitan. Persians find it painful and diminishing to be cut off from foreign influences and cultural exchanges that have traditionally revitalized their own culture. Persians, therefore, resent the isolation and restrictions on exposure to foreign culture imposed by clerical leaders in the Islamic Republic. They have substantially undermined and circumvented these restrictions through black market sales of music and satellite television. Likewise, Persians resent sanctions imposed by the West that have a similar, constraining effect.

[Anonymous]

Please don’t take this the wrong way, I don’t want to start a historical discussion, but west really fears another Persian empire. If you ask Westerns or Americans about Iran, some of them even don’t know where Iran is situated. The Persian empire conquered 80% of the civilized world but You generally don't learn about the Persian empire in schools simply because of politics. They never wanted a powerful and successful Iran (I’m NOT talking about nuclear bomb sort of things, Iranian PEOPLE think knowledge is power), they are trying to introduce Iranians as superficial and non-modern people). After the Arab invasion of Persia, the islamic hordes burnt all books in the Persia libraries, destroying the knowledge that took Europe 1000 years to re-invent. Now they want the world to forget everything and think WEST IS EVERYTHING!
Do you remember any historical movie about Persians? Cyrus the Great figures in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) as the patron and deliverer of the Jews. He is mentioned 23 times by name and alluded to several times more. From these statements it appears that Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, was the monarch under whom the captivity of the Jews ended, for in the first year of his reign he was prompted by God to make a decree that the Temple in Jerusalem should be rebuilt and that such Jews as cared to might return to their land for this purpose. But west made the film 300 in which Iranians are some wild people and Westerners are some angles! Cyrus the Great declared the first Charter of Human Rights known to mankind. He took the title of “King of Babylon and King of the Land”. Cyrus had no thought of forcing conquered people into a single mold, and had the wisdom to leave unchanged the institution of each kingdom he attached to the Persian Crown. In 539 BC he allowed more than 40,000 Jews to leave Babylon and return to Palestine. This step was in line with his policy to bring peace to Mankind. He liberated nations from slavery. Why they don’t make any film about this?!
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I’m not going to talk about history but these facts bother Iranians.
I think this reality show is deliberately planed to show Iranians like this...!!!

[Anonymous]

So now all whites are European? WTF? Who is the happy ignorant now?