Something I don't understand about criticism of big families

[Anonymous]

"On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle."


Why were you given this "special gift" and others "blessed" with no children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't help but feel some of these stories are exaggerated. I know large families where there was lots of love and small ones where there was abuse and neglect. This isn't about small/large families. The stories here are about bad parenting.

Completely agree. Awful parents are awful parents, no matter how many or how few kids they have.

Also, regarding having enough time for your kids, a mom of 5 who is there at 3:30 when the kids get off school is going to have way more time with her kids than a mom of 2 who works until 7:00 and puts her kids to be by 8:00. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

But this only discusses the mom. What about dad? A dad of five, in this area, supporting a family on his own? I'm guessing a demanding job with little free time so free time must be spread over 5 kids. Fine if it works for some families but not the ideal for me, or my husband.

[Anonymous]

OP, do you self-flagellate too? I read an article about an ultra-Catholic family and the wife said she did some "light" self-flagellation. That is some seriously weird stuff. But then, I am an atheist and think most religious stuff is weird.

I've got 2 kids. That's what I wanted. My husband and I have great, flexible jobs that pay well and allow us to spend lots of time together as a family, and we will not be counting on our children to take care of us in our old age because we have saved for that. I don't care how many children people want to have, as long as they can take care of them and don't let them run wild anywhere near me. However, I just don't see how a parent can spend meaningful time with each child as an individual when they have so many.

[Anonymous]

There, PP, does that clarify things for you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"So what does being "open to children" mean to you?"

Miracle of God, and all that.

OP here to own my words. Yes, I am "open to children," "open to life."

What that means for faithful Catholics is simply that every act of sex is open to the possibility of life resulting. It does not mean trying to have as many kids as possible, or that sex is only to be enjoyed when there is a high likelihood of pregnancy. Not at all. It means God designed sex to be unitative and procreative, inseparably so, and it needs to be respected as such. So couples may use fertility awareness, but they may not use "contra"-ception--artificial means to inhibit or destroy natural conception.

Full justice to this beautiful concept cannot be done here, but that's a brief attempt to clear up any confusion.

Living out God's plan for sex will result in great joy, but also require great virtue. There may be infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, or many babies close together, or many periods of chastity. You never know. And how you deal with the crosses you bear is something you need to answer to God for--but He will always give you the graces to endure, and you can trust He won't give you a scorpion when you ask for bread.

I have had great joy and great suffering in the gift of my fertility, and I try to thank God for all of it. That is what I am called to do, but it can be hard. I'm only human, and I have my wants, and it is difficult to say "Thy will, not mine, be done."

On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle.

I had another thought, but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed--husband's train is here...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"So what does being "open to children" mean to you?"

Miracle of God, and all that.

OP here to own my words. Yes, I am "open to children," "open to life."

What that means for faithful Catholics is simply that every act of sex is open to the possibility of life resulting. It does not mean trying to have as many kids as possible, or that sex is only to be enjoyed when there is a high likelihood of pregnancy. Not at all. It means God designed sex to be unitative and procreative, inseparably so, and it needs to be respected as such. So couples may use fertility awareness, but they may not use "contra"-ception--artificial means to inhibit or destroy natural conception.

Full justice to this beautiful concept cannot be done here, but that's a brief attempt to clear up any confusion.

Living out God's plan for sex will result in great joy, but also require great virtue. There may be infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, or many babies close together, or many periods of chastity. You never know. And how you deal with the crosses you bear is something you need to answer to God for--but He will always give you the graces to endure, and you can trust He won't give you a scorpion when you ask for bread.

I have had great joy and great suffering in the gift of my fertility, and I try to thank God for all of it. That is what I am called to do, but it can be hard. I'm only human, and I have my wants, and it is difficult to say "Thy will, not mine, be done."

On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle.

I had another thought, but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed--husband's train is here...

Do you have some support for that proposition? A citation, perhaps?

[Anonymous]

14:54 Umm, not that poster, but birth control is man made, not a natural occurence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:54 Umm, not that poster, but birth control is man made, not a natural occurence.

So are pumpkin spice lattes and computers. And I happily drink them and use them. Not sure why birth control would be any different.

BC is a great invention. People should be able to decide when they want kids, and when they don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:14:54 Umm, not that poster, but birth control is man made, not a natural occurence.

So are pumpkin spice lattes and computers. And I happily drink them and use them. Not sure why birth control would be any different.

BC is a great invention. People should be able to decide when they want kids, and when they don't.

Agreed. Seems like folks want to dictate when people should use them (to stop having so many children).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, do you self-flagellate too? I read an article about an ultra-Catholic family and the wife said she did some "light" self-flagellation. That is some seriously weird stuff. But then, I am an atheist and think most religious stuff is weird.

I've got 2 kids. That's what I wanted. My husband and I have great, flexible jobs that pay well and allow us to spend lots of time together as a family, and we will not be counting on our children to take care of us in our old age because we have saved for that. I don't care how many children people want to have, as long as they can take care of them and don't let them run wild anywhere near me. However, I just don't see how a parent can spend meaningful time with each child as an individual when they have so many.

You say you don't care, yet you turn right around and made a snarky comment. Which is it? Do you care or not? If you truly don't care, then your last sentence was unnecessary and a cheap pot shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"So what does being "open to children" mean to you?"

Miracle of God, and all that.

OP here to own my words. Yes, I am "open to children," "open to life."

What that means for faithful Catholics is simply that every act of sex is open to the possibility of life resulting. It does not mean trying to have as many kids as possible, or that sex is only to be enjoyed when there is a high likelihood of pregnancy. Not at all. It means God designed sex to be unitative and procreative, inseparably so, and it needs to be respected as such. So couples may use fertility awareness, but they may not use "contra"-ception--artificial means to inhibit or destroy natural conception.

Full justice to this beautiful concept cannot be done here, but that's a brief attempt to clear up any confusion.

Living out God's plan for sex will result in great joy, but also require great virtue. There may be infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, or many babies close together, or many periods of chastity. You never know. And how you deal with the crosses you bear is something you need to answer to God for--but He will always give you the graces to endure, and you can trust He won't give you a scorpion when you ask for bread.

I have had great joy and great suffering in the gift of my fertility, and I try to thank God for all of it. That is what I am called to do, but it can be hard. I'm only human, and I have my wants, and it is difficult to say "Thy will, not mine, be done."

On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle.

I had another thought, but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed--husband's train is here...

Do you have some support for that proposition? A citation, perhaps?

Are you asking for a citation of Church teaching?

If so, there is Humanae Vitae:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm

Blessed Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm

Or The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_cf9601.htm

Brief summary of history of Church teaching:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

"The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

Is that what you were looking for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:54 Umm, not that poster, but birth control is man made, not a natural occurence.

I'd just like some insight as to where I should go for the definitive statement on how God designed sex (and presumably other things). Is it on the web?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"So what does being "open to children" mean to you?"

Miracle of God, and all that.

OP here to own my words. Yes, I am "open to children," "open to life."

What that means for faithful Catholics is simply that every act of sex is open to the possibility of life resulting. It does not mean trying to have as many kids as possible, or that sex is only to be enjoyed when there is a high likelihood of pregnancy. Not at all. It means God designed sex to be unitative and procreative, inseparably so, and it needs to be respected as such. So couples may use fertility awareness, but they may not use "contra"-ception--artificial means to inhibit or destroy natural conception.

Full justice to this beautiful concept cannot be done here, but that's a brief attempt to clear up any confusion.

Living out God's plan for sex will result in great joy, but also require great virtue. There may be infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, or many babies close together, or many periods of chastity. You never know. And how you deal with the crosses you bear is something you need to answer to God for--but He will always give you the graces to endure, and you can trust He won't give you a scorpion when you ask for bread.

I have had great joy and great suffering in the gift of my fertility, and I try to thank God for all of it. That is what I am called to do, but it can be hard. I'm only human, and I have my wants, and it is difficult to say "Thy will, not mine, be done."

On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle.

I had another thought, but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed--husband's train is here...

Do you have some support for that proposition? A citation, perhaps?

Are you asking for a citation of Church teaching?

If so, there is Humanae Vitae:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm

Blessed Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm

Or The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_cf9601.htm

Brief summary of history of Church teaching:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

"The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

Is that what you were looking for?

No, not really. Church teachings and other man-made constructs aren't helpful in determining the intentions of God, since they're the product of human fallability and institutional bias and inefficiency. Is that all you have? Or is your statement that about the mind of God just the regurgitation of what other people think God means?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"So what does being "open to children" mean to you?"

Miracle of God, and all that.

OP here to own my words. Yes, I am "open to children," "open to life."

What that means for faithful Catholics is simply that every act of sex is open to the possibility of life resulting. It does not mean trying to have as many kids as possible, or that sex is only to be enjoyed when there is a high likelihood of pregnancy. Not at all. It means God designed sex to be unitative and procreative, inseparably so, and it needs to be respected as such. So couples may use fertility awareness, but they may not use "contra"-ception--artificial means to inhibit or destroy natural conception.

Full justice to this beautiful concept cannot be done here, but that's a brief attempt to clear up any confusion.

Living out God's plan for sex will result in great joy, but also require great virtue. There may be infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, or many babies close together, or many periods of chastity. You never know. And how you deal with the crosses you bear is something you need to answer to God for--but He will always give you the graces to endure, and you can trust He won't give you a scorpion when you ask for bread.

I have had great joy and great suffering in the gift of my fertility, and I try to thank God for all of it. That is what I am called to do, but it can be hard. I'm only human, and I have my wants, and it is difficult to say "Thy will, not mine, be done."

On a practical note, some women welcome huge families, and some women fear them, and some women change their mind along the way. It's a work in progress. For me, I love my huge family, and I always hoped I would be blessed with many children, but I know that is a special gift I have--for many faithful Catholics, it is a huge struggle.

I had another thought, but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed--husband's train is here...

Do you have some support for that proposition? A citation, perhaps?

Are you asking for a citation of Church teaching?

If so, there is Humanae Vitae:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm

Blessed Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm

Or The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_cf9601.htm

Brief summary of history of Church teaching:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

"The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

Is that what you were looking for?

No, not really. Church teachings and other man-made constructs aren't helpful in determining the intentions of God, since they're the product of human fallability and institutional bias and inefficiency. Is that all you have? Or is your statement that about the mind of God just the regurgitation of what other people think God means?

Oh, I see. I misunderstood.

Well, that goes down to one fundamental question: is there such a thing as absolute truth? Is there a truth about human sexuality that transcends your mind, my mind, any human mind?

What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Not everyone is going to have ten children if they do not use birth control. Fertility is the not same for all women. I have three children and have not used birth control in years, I am also considered to be in my most fertile years and I would not say that I have infertility issues. Women like Michelle Duggar are able to get pregnant relatively shortly after each pregnancy, it is not the same for every woman. Birth control isn't going to stop you from having 4,8, or 20 kids because who knows if you are even able to get pregnant x amount of times.

I am not against birth control, I just wanted to state that there is no universal ability for EVERY woman to have 20 kids or 5 kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:14:54 Umm, not that poster, but birth control is man made, not a natural occurence.

So are pumpkin spice lattes and computers. And I happily drink them and use them. Not sure why birth control would be any different.

BC is a great invention. People should be able to decide when they want kids, and when they don't.

Agreed. Seems like folks want to dictate when people should use them (to stop having so many children).

So long as they can support the kids which many, many can't. Shouldn't just be a free-for-all. Responsibility has to play a role and sadly it doesn't always.