What HHI for financial aid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like clockwork the financial aid posts devolve to the "you shouldn't have had more than 1 kid" troupe.

Yes, unfortunately every financial aid question devolves into this, courtesy of a handful of completely mental posters. Renders this sub-forum completely useless.

It is very reasonable to raise questions when a high income family with an excessively large number of children is applying for financial aid.

No, because the thread isn’t about whether you think it’s justified or not. Nor are you the one making the aid decision. So just STFU and stop derailing threads.

Take your anger out somewhere else, you degenerate.

The only thing I’m angry about is people derailing otherwise useful threads for their pointless posturing. No one cares what your feelings toward financial aid are, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like clockwork the financial aid posts devolve to the "you shouldn't have had more than 1 kid" troupe.

Yes, unfortunately every financial aid question devolves into this, courtesy of a handful of completely mental posters. Renders this sub-forum completely useless.

It is very reasonable to raise questions when a high income family with an excessively large number of children is applying for financial aid.

No, because the thread isn’t about whether you think it’s justified or not. Nor are you the one making the aid decision. So just STFU and stop derailing threads.

Take your anger out somewhere else, you degenerate.

The only thing I’m angry about is people derailing otherwise useful threads for their pointless posturing. No one cares what your feelings toward financial aid are, sorry.

You are doing the exact thing you despise. Derailing the thread. Skip past a post if you don't like it. When you respond and have nothing to add, you waste all our time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

But they won't get 4 full pay spots. Most families of 4 will either go public, or go to a different private that offers them FA.

In your version of the world, there are sufficient well qualified and well behaved students willing to pay full tuition, yet the school passes them up to offer FA to someone else. Why? It's not charitable impulse, since we agree there are many more needy families. So what's your theory of why this happens?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like clockwork the financial aid posts devolve to the "you shouldn't have had more than 1 kid" troupe.

Yes, unfortunately every financial aid question devolves into this, courtesy of a handful of completely mental posters. Renders this sub-forum completely useless.

It is very reasonable to raise questions when a high income family with an excessively large number of children is applying for financial aid.

No, because the thread isn’t about whether you think it’s justified or not. Nor are you the one making the aid decision. So just STFU and stop derailing threads.

Take your anger out somewhere else, you degenerate.

The only thing I’m angry about is people derailing otherwise useful threads for their pointless posturing. No one cares what your feelings toward financial aid are, sorry.

You are doing the exact thing you despise. Derailing the thread. Skip past a post if you don't like it. When you respond and have nothing to add, you waste all our time.

It’s already derailed because of useless contributors like you that are desperate to have someone in their life listen to their opinions for once. It started on the very first page.

But let’s get back to OP’s question. We know Landon and Maret offer a decent amount of aid to families in the $200k and $300k range because they list it on their pages. Any other concrete examples that people are aware of?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

They aren’t taking smart kids who need full aid, for true low income. So, stop with the high income aid and make it more affordable for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

They aren’t taking smart kids who need full aid, for true low income. So, stop with the high income aid and make it more affordable for everyone.

+100 right on

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

But they won't get 4 full pay spots. Most families of 4 will either go public, or go to a different private that offers them FA.

In your version of the world, there are sufficient well qualified and well behaved students willing to pay full tuition, yet the school passes them up to offer FA to someone else. Why? It's not charitable impulse, since we agree there are many more needy families. So what's your theory of why this happens?

The financial aid offices, created a long time ago, exist to do this. It is administrative bloat and these offices have expanded to become an enormous part of their budget.

They no longer function like they were intended. They cherry pick some families to give aid to that are already high income while causing tuition to increase for everyone else.

They should just pass on the families who want discounts and dramatically shrink the financial aid offices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

But they won't get 4 full pay spots. Most families of 4 will either go public, or go to a different private that offers them FA.

In your version of the world, there are sufficient well qualified and well behaved students willing to pay full tuition, yet the school passes them up to offer FA to someone else. Why? It's not charitable impulse, since we agree there are many more needy families. So what's your theory of why this happens?

Any parents with four kids asking for financial aid should be ashamed of themselves. Public is free after all. These families living an enormous lifestyle are welcome in private of course as long as they are full pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

But they won't get 4 full pay spots. Most families of 4 will either go public, or go to a different private that offers them FA.

In your version of the world, there are sufficient well qualified and well behaved students willing to pay full tuition, yet the school passes them up to offer FA to someone else. Why? It's not charitable impulse, since we agree there are many more needy families. So what's your theory of why this happens?

Any parents with four kids asking for financial aid should be ashamed of themselves. Public is free after all. These families living an enormous lifestyle are welcome in private of course as long as they are full pay.

Especially at that income.

[Anonymous]

I am one of the OP’s with the 300k HHI and kids who get aid. I also think people need to realize that not everybody is getting 50% eight. Some people are getting $5000 a year per child. My general impression having gone through the process at multiple schools before deciding where to enroll our children was the financial aid office works hard to look at what a family can truly afford and give appropriate aid. We got the same package at multiple schools and I don’t think that was a coincidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the OP’s with the 300k HHI and kids who get aid. I also think people need to realize that not everybody is getting 50% eight. Some people are getting $5000 a year per child. My general impression having gone through the process at multiple schools before deciding where to enroll our children was the financial aid office works hard to look at what a family can truly afford and give appropriate aid. We got the same package at multiple schools and I don’t think that was a coincidence.

No offense but you are the exact reason people find financial aid to be outrageous. That $5k in aid could be put to use in the school budget for meaningful improvements for the kids. Instead it allows wealthy families that are cherry picked for aid to take an extra vacation or two per year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just under $300k when we applied to well reputed (non-religious) privates for 6th grade. Tuition was in the 50s on average. We got a few paltry offers of $10k but mostly nothing. The one school that waitlisted our kid (who got into the rest) said they’d be admitted if willing to full pay.

We stayed in public.

On that income yuo can afford full pay. That's crazy you expect that much help.

That’s not true. That’s $300k before taxes. See my very basic breakdown above.

You are free to feel that way. But $10k is generally the amount that we donate every year. If I found out (and I wouldn't, but if I did) that the school offered $10k to a family with an HHI of $300k, my contributions would come to a screeching halt.

We’re that family. We live in a small rowhouse in DC. We have two kids. After taxes and the mortgage etc., we don’t have a shit ton left. And we’re saving for college and retirement. This is DC. $300k pre-tax for a family of 4 isn’t all that much.

Families with more than two kids maybe shouldn’t be asking for financial aid in the first place. Having a large family is a choice. No different from purchasing a $6M house or a $300k vehicle.

NP with one kid here. Families with multiple kids are a reliable long-term income stream for the school, even at 60% tuition. Which is why the school CHOOSES to give them FA.

As for "if I knew my donation was going to x, I wouldn't donate" - please, just stop donating. Donations, like tax dollars, inevitably go to things you wouldn't choose. Unlike tax dollars, you can stop donating or choose an earmarked cause like a new classroom wing, so please do that and stop complaining endlessly about who is needy enough for FA.

Giving discounts on tuition has an opportunity cost when you could be charging full price. Families who are full pay tuition are better for the school, from a budget perspective.

Incorrect. Two kids at 100% tuition is less money than 4 kids at 60%. The schools are using FA in a financially beneficial manner.

None if this has to do with "dessert." FA decisions are not made on the basis of who deserves aid.

Those four spots could go to four full pay kids. What meds are you on?

But they won't get 4 full pay spots. Most families of 4 will either go public, or go to a different private that offers them FA.

In your version of the world, there are sufficient well qualified and well behaved students willing to pay full tuition, yet the school passes them up to offer FA to someone else. Why? It's not charitable impulse, since we agree there are many more needy families. So what's your theory of why this happens?

The financial aid offices, created a long time ago, exist to do this. It is administrative bloat and these offices have expanded to become an enormous part of their budget.

They no longer function like they were intended. They cherry pick some families to give aid to that are already high income while causing tuition to increase for everyone else.

They should just pass on the families who want discounts and dramatically shrink the financial aid offices.

Why, in your opinion, do they do this?

These are multi-million dollar organizations with budgets overseen by a board. Explain to me why you think this is happening if not a business reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the OP’s with the 300k HHI and kids who get aid. I also think people need to realize that not everybody is getting 50% eight. Some people are getting $5000 a year per child. My general impression having gone through the process at multiple schools before deciding where to enroll our children was the financial aid office works hard to look at what a family can truly afford and give appropriate aid. We got the same package at multiple schools and I don’t think that was a coincidence.

No offense but you are the exact reason people find financial aid to be outrageous. That $5k in aid could be put to use in the school budget for meaningful improvements for the kids. Instead it allows wealthy families that are cherry picked for aid to take an extra vacation or two per year.

I’m not the pp, but $300k pre tax on 2 incomes in the dmv isn’t wealthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the OP’s with the 300k HHI and kids who get aid. I also think people need to realize that not everybody is getting 50% eight. Some people are getting $5000 a year per child. My general impression having gone through the process at multiple schools before deciding where to enroll our children was the financial aid office works hard to look at what a family can truly afford and give appropriate aid. We got the same package at multiple schools and I don’t think that was a coincidence.

No offense but you are the exact reason people find financial aid to be outrageous. That $5k in aid could be put to use in the school budget for meaningful improvements for the kids. Instead it allows wealthy families that are cherry picked for aid to take an extra vacation or two per year.

I’m not the pp, but $300k pre tax on 2 incomes in the dmv isn’t wealthy.

That is all relative. Would they be able to cover tuition by prioritizing their own expenses? Yes absolutely.