DC - "No Right Turn On Red" - Why????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

The behavior you're complaining about is not unsafe for drivers. It's just inconvenient for drivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alexandria recently added a bunch of "no right on red" signs at almost every intersection from Old Town to Del Ray. It's bonkers. I say this as a pedestrian over half the time.

Good drivers were mindful before the signs. Signs don't stop bad drivers.

The signs do absolutely nothing regarding safety.

Maybe drivers in Alexandria are special, but in my experience not in Alexandria, there are plenty of drivers who obey the no right on red signs. Not all, but a lot more than if there's no sign.

I agree that there are also plenty of drivers who ignore signs, which is why it takes more than just no right on red signs to make a crossing safe. But the no right on red signs do help.

How does no right on red make crossing safe? The whole point of right on red is that pedestrians are not supposed to be crossing the cross street when that light is green.

That is incorrect. The 'whole point' of turning right on red was to save fuel, which it didn't.

Also, the "whole point" of turning on red was never that pedestrians should not be crossing, because you actually are not allowed to turn on red if pedestrians are present, you must always yield to pedestrians if turning on red. Also, you may not block a crosswalk, which you are doing if you are turning on red when pedestrians are present. A pedestrian on a corner may be crossing in front of you or where you are turning -- you don't get to assume which that may be. You yield.

So, these common misconceptions, are actually driver error and violations of the regulations, and because these misconceptions and errors are so very common and passed form ignorant parents to the new driving teens, it is best to make the law crystal clear for everyone by banning it.

Yeah. I disagree. I have no problem banning it during certain hours, but there's not reason to ban it 24/7. There are so many new lights the past few years. No reason not to be allowed to turn right on red after 8 or 9pm. Mostly anyone adhering to the time window wouldn't be the reckless population this needs to target anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There would be way fewer accidents in DC if pedestrians did not act like they had a death wish. People seem to step off the curb without even looking around them to see what else is going on. Walkers in suburbs do not generally act like this. Definitely it’s not how I taught my kids to cross a street.

Until there are changes in pedestrian practices you won’t see a meaningful drop in those death stats.

Pedestrian deaths have nearly doubled since 2009. That increase is not because of pedestrian behavior. Its because of changes in the vehicle mix and driver behavior.

And they've stayed the same since 2007. Funny how easy it is to cherrypick data. Pedestrian deaths have stayed in range for a long time.

But what is really funny is that pedestrian deaths increased 40% since traffic "calming" was instituted in earnest. Congestion makes things worse not better.

The numbers are up nationally during the 2007-2023 period as well. Going from roughly 4,700 to 7,500. Those increases can't be attributed to anything DC specific. Most likely DC trends are part of the larger national trends. Those trends being larger/taller vehicles, more aggressive driving and distracting screens everywhere. The lower speed limits, prohibitions of right on red and other changes are attempts to get back to the same harm budget of a decade ago. If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can really only blame themselves.

If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can be grateful, because it's safer for drivers and passengers too.

That's not what the data shows. Overall deaths increased substantially between 2022 and 2023. It just so happens that 2022 was the start of this insane experiment. Ironically, deaths attributed to speeding have stayed within range.

To put it simply, overall deaths have increased while speed related deaths have stayed the same. Great job traffic calmers, you've made things worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There would be way fewer accidents in DC if pedestrians did not act like they had a death wish. People seem to step off the curb without even looking around them to see what else is going on. Walkers in suburbs do not generally act like this. Definitely it’s not how I taught my kids to cross a street.

Until there are changes in pedestrian practices you won’t see a meaningful drop in those death stats.

Pedestrian deaths have nearly doubled since 2009. That increase is not because of pedestrian behavior. Its because of changes in the vehicle mix and driver behavior.

And they've stayed the same since 2007. Funny how easy it is to cherrypick data. Pedestrian deaths have stayed in range for a long time.

But what is really funny is that pedestrian deaths increased 40% since traffic "calming" was instituted in earnest. Congestion makes things worse not better.

The numbers are up nationally during the 2007-2023 period as well. Going from roughly 4,700 to 7,500. Those increases can't be attributed to anything DC specific. Most likely DC trends are part of the larger national trends. Those trends being larger/taller vehicles, more aggressive driving and distracting screens everywhere. The lower speed limits, prohibitions of right on red and other changes are attempts to get back to the same harm budget of a decade ago. If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can really only blame themselves.

If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can be grateful, because it's safer for drivers and passengers too.

That's not what the data shows. Overall deaths increased substantially between 2022 and 2023. It just so happens that 2022 was the start of this insane experiment. Ironically, deaths attributed to speeding have stayed within range.

To put it simply, overall deaths have increased while speed related deaths have stayed the same. Great job traffic calmers, you've made things worse.

Argue with the laws of physics, not me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alexandria recently added a bunch of "no right on red" signs at almost every intersection from Old Town to Del Ray. It's bonkers. I say this as a pedestrian over half the time.

Good drivers were mindful before the signs. Signs don't stop bad drivers.

The signs do absolutely nothing regarding safety.

Maybe drivers in Alexandria are special, but in my experience not in Alexandria, there are plenty of drivers who obey the no right on red signs. Not all, but a lot more than if there's no sign.

I agree that there are also plenty of drivers who ignore signs, which is why it takes more than just no right on red signs to make a crossing safe. But the no right on red signs do help.

How does no right on red make crossing safe? The whole point of right on red is that pedestrians are not supposed to be crossing the cross street when that light is green.

That is incorrect. The 'whole point' of turning right on red was to save fuel, which it didn't.

Also, the "whole point" of turning on red was never that pedestrians should not be crossing, because you actually are not allowed to turn on red if pedestrians are present, you must always yield to pedestrians if turning on red. Also, you may not block a crosswalk, which you are doing if you are turning on red when pedestrians are present. A pedestrian on a corner may be crossing in front of you or where you are turning -- you don't get to assume which that may be. You yield.

So, these common misconceptions, are actually driver error and violations of the regulations, and because these misconceptions and errors are so very common and passed form ignorant parents to the new driving teens, it is best to make the law crystal clear for everyone by banning it.

Yeah. I disagree. I have no problem banning it during certain hours, but there's not reason to ban it 24/7. There are so many new lights the past few years. No reason not to be allowed to turn right on red after 8 or 9pm. Mostly anyone adhering to the time window wouldn't be the reckless population this needs to target anyway.

You can disagree all you want. People adhere to always/never rules better than sometimes-yes/sometimes-no rules, and it's not just reckless drivers who turn right on red and hit people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

If someone is jaywalking and gets themselves killed, the driver of the car didn’t kill them anymore than if someone walks off a cliff the cliff killed them. Their own recklessness killed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

If someone is jaywalking and gets themselves killed, the driver of the car didn’t kill them anymore than if someone walks off a cliff the cliff killed them. Their own recklessness killed them.

If they walk right into traffic agree. And yes people do this sometimes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

If someone is jaywalking and gets themselves killed, the driver of the car didn’t kill them anymore than if someone walks off a cliff the cliff killed them. Their own recklessness killed them.

People do not "get themselves killed" unless they are trying on purpose to do it. People who are killed by drivers are killed by drivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There would be way fewer accidents in DC if pedestrians did not act like they had a death wish. People seem to step off the curb without even looking around them to see what else is going on. Walkers in suburbs do not generally act like this. Definitely it’s not how I taught my kids to cross a street.

Until there are changes in pedestrian practices you won’t see a meaningful drop in those death stats.

Pedestrian deaths have nearly doubled since 2009. That increase is not because of pedestrian behavior. Its because of changes in the vehicle mix and driver behavior.

And they've stayed the same since 2007. Funny how easy it is to cherrypick data. Pedestrian deaths have stayed in range for a long time.

But what is really funny is that pedestrian deaths increased 40% since traffic "calming" was instituted in earnest. Congestion makes things worse not better.

The numbers are up nationally during the 2007-2023 period as well. Going from roughly 4,700 to 7,500. Those increases can't be attributed to anything DC specific. Most likely DC trends are part of the larger national trends. Those trends being larger/taller vehicles, more aggressive driving and distracting screens everywhere. The lower speed limits, prohibitions of right on red and other changes are attempts to get back to the same harm budget of a decade ago. If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can really only blame themselves.

If that leads to slower traffic, drivers can be grateful, because it's safer for drivers and passengers too.

That's not what the data shows. Overall deaths increased substantially between 2022 and 2023. It just so happens that 2022 was the start of this insane experiment. Ironically, deaths attributed to speeding have stayed within range.

To put it simply, overall deaths have increased while speed related deaths have stayed the same. Great job traffic calmers, you've made things worse.

Argue with the laws of physics, not me.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out the fact that the changes you have pushed for have led to an increase in deaths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

If someone is jaywalking and gets themselves killed, the driver of the car didn’t kill them anymore than if someone walks off a cliff the cliff killed them. Their own recklessness killed them.

People do not "get themselves killed" unless they are trying on purpose to do it. People who are killed by drivers are killed by drivers.

If they are being careless then yes they can get themselves killed. Like people who try to out the buffalo or get too close to geysers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all of those supporting no right on red, I hope you also will be calling for all pedestrians to stay on the curb as soon as the walk signal turns flashing orange. Under the law, if you are in the intersection, you may finish crossing, but if you haven’t started, you need to wait until the next walk cycle. Too many walkers start after the light begins to flash, which reduces the time for cars to turn. If everyone wants safer intersections, everyone has to do their part.

NP. I totally agree with this! Everyone has their role to play in traffic safety. It's just that more of the burden is on the person operating the multi-ton vehicle, since they're the one who could kill someone, should they behave carelessly.

If someone is jaywalking and gets themselves killed, the driver of the car didn’t kill them anymore than if someone walks off a cliff the cliff killed them. Their own recklessness killed them.

People do not "get themselves killed" unless they are trying on purpose to do it. People who are killed by drivers are killed by drivers.

If they are being careless then yes they can get themselves killed. Like people who try to out the buffalo or get too close to geysers.

No. Being careless doesn't kill you. Being hit by a driver is what kills you. Also drivers are not buffaloes, and drivers are not geysers.

[Anonymous]

I will let you turn right on red after stop, if you actually STOP before turning right. It's not right on red on two wheels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will let you turn right on red after stop, if you actually STOP before turning right. It's not right on red on two wheels.

You might want to see someone about your control issues

[Anonymous]

Because no one in DC knows right from left.