Italy, France, Germany, and Spain outlaw surrogacy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62rmv63069o

At the bottom of this article it mentions that “all forms of surrogacy” are banned in Italy, France, Germany, and Spain. This really surprises me that Western European countries, that are typically rather progressive, at least compared to the U.S. would have this type of policy.

Did you know that they also ban abortion in the third trimester?

Third trimester is week 28-40. That’s late and very rare.

So?

3rd trimester elective termination is still 100% lawful in D.C., New Jersey, and several other U.S. states, but is BANNED by these supposedly “progressive” EU countries.

Those EU countries have government funded abortion.

But they restrict elective abortions much earlier. Even Finland has a 12 week limit.

If the government will pay for your abortion, you don’t need to wait past 12 weeks.

In the U.S., most non-health-related abortions later than 12 weeks are because the woman is too poor to get it done immediately.

This is incredibly naive What if your circumstances change and you decide later on during pregnancy that you don’t want to have the child? Or what if you don’t even know that you are pregnant until you are past 12 weeks? Plenty of women have elective abortions beyond 12 weeks that have nothing to do with not being able to afford it earlier.

Not in much of Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62rmv63069o

At the bottom of this article it mentions that “all forms of surrogacy” are banned in Italy, France, Germany, and Spain. This really surprises me that Western European countries, that are typically rather progressive, at least compared to the U.S. would have this type of policy.

Did you know that they also ban abortion in the third trimester?

Third trimester is week 28-40. That’s late and very rare.

So?

3rd trimester elective termination is still 100% lawful in D.C., New Jersey, and several other U.S. states, but is BANNED by these supposedly “progressive” EU countries.

Those EU countries have government funded abortion.

But they restrict elective abortions much earlier. Even Finland has a 12 week limit.

If the government will pay for your abortion, you don’t need to wait past 12 weeks.

In the U.S., most non-health-related abortions later than 12 weeks are because the woman is too poor to get it done immediately.

This is incredibly naive What if your circumstances change and you decide later on during pregnancy that you don’t want to have the child? Or what if you don’t even know that you are pregnant until you are past 12 weeks? Plenty of women have elective abortions beyond 12 weeks that have nothing to do with not being able to afford it earlier.

Not in much of Europe.

What’s not in much of Europe? Pregnant women in Europe never have a change of heart beyond the 12th week? Not realizing one is pregnant until the 2nd trimester doesn’t happen to European women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62rmv63069o

At the bottom of this article it mentions that “all forms of surrogacy” are banned in Italy, France, Germany, and Spain. This really surprises me that Western European countries, that are typically rather progressive, at least compared to the U.S. would have this type of policy.

Good. It should be outlawed in the US as well. There is nothing progressive about wealthy women using poor women to have their babies because they don't want to lose their figured it they don't want to interrupt their careers. Surrogacy is despicable.

Surrogacy is amazing. If a woman chooses to do this in the US, she should be allowed to make the choice. It’s despicable to take this away.

I will believe you next time a rich billionaire woman chooses to be a surrogate.

I have a friend who was a surrogate and she’s not poor. She’s middle class. She was a surrogate for a gay couple and then for a couple where the woman couldn’t carry a baby.

I also have two friends who could onl have children via surrogacy and neither were rich.

If you can’t have your own children, for whatever reason, the path is extremely difficult and expensive. If women are willing to be surrogates and are compensated, more power to them.

The surrogate I know (acquaintance from HS) is also solidly middle class, maybe bumping up against UMC. She had 4 of her own kids young, easy pregnancies, and loved being pregnant. She was a surrogate twice for an infertile couple. She is also very religious and viewed it as a very "easy" thing she could do to help God build families.

What religion?

Some brand of Christian, don't know details.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It isn’t really an issue of progressive or not. There is a just a different conception of human dignity and the role of the market in Europe than the US. In their view it infringes human dignity to allow “renting wombs”. Whereas in the US you tend to believe that people should have the right to make money from their body parts if they want to.

And, in the US there is little thought given to the welfare of the resulting baby, which is also consistent with the US versus Europe. The concern is not just exploitation of women, it’s also exploitation of the baby.

It’s not exploitation of anyone in the US. You should be allowed to carry a child for someone else, if that’s what you want to do. Treating grown women like children and telling them what they can do with their bodies is a scary trend and it’s increasing.

We don’t even allow newborn puppies to be taken from their mothers because it’s cruel. It is absolute insanity that we are supposed to pretend that a baby yanked from its birth mother moments after birth does not grieve and is not aware of that. Babies recognize the scent, sound, feel, and more of their biological mothers. Yet we are supposed to pretend all of these doesn’t happen to preserve the feelings of adults.

Often the surrogate is not the biological mother. She’s the carrier.

It’s not “absolute insanity.” It’s not cruel.

Do you know any children born from surrogacy or are you just projecting?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a law that de facto makes it impossible for gay couples to have children. It’s not progressive. In Italy it was advanced by the far right government.

It doesn't prevent them from adopting. You can be a parent.

Only couples who have been married for 3 (or 4?) years can adopt. Gay marriage is illegal in Italy. Therefore, they cannot be parents.

So your solution is to exploit women?

Why do you want to control what women do with their bodies?

We want to control what MEN can do with OUR bodies.

That’s nonsensical

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surrogacy is supremely selfish for the infant and we already know that adopted newborns can experience grief and loss. When an infant is removed from their birth parent(s), even if the adoption is a positive step, the child still experiences separation from the primary caregiver they bonded with in utero.

If you love children so much why are you deliberately hurting them. These babies aren't crying for you but for the woman who gave them birth and their security from the beginning. Selfish and greedy.

No, this is wrong.

How is it wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Most of Europe is also Roman Catholic and abortion is a mortal sin.

Well, but most of Europe. Maybe most of France and Italy. Certainly not Germany.

Then it really is selling a baby to the highest bidder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Most of Europe is also Roman Catholic and abortion is a mortal sin.

Well, but most of Europe. Maybe most of France and Italy. Certainly not Germany.

Germany has a lot of Catholics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t really an issue of progressive or not. There is a just a different conception of human dignity and the role of the market in Europe than the US. In their view it infringes human dignity to allow “renting wombs”. Whereas in the US you tend to believe that people should have the right to make money from their body parts if they want to.

And, in the US there is little thought given to the welfare of the resulting baby, which is also consistent with the US versus Europe. The concern is not just exploitation of women, it’s also exploitation of the baby.

It’s not exploitation of anyone in the US. You should be allowed to carry a child for someone else, if that’s what you want to do. Treating grown women like children and telling them what they can do with their bodies is a scary trend and it’s increasing.

We don’t even allow newborn puppies to be taken from their mothers because it’s cruel. It is absolute insanity that we are supposed to pretend that a baby yanked from its birth mother moments after birth does not grieve and is not aware of that. Babies recognize the scent, sound, feel, and more of their biological mothers. Yet we are supposed to pretend all of these doesn’t happen to preserve the feelings of adults.

Often the surrogate is not the biological mother. She’s the carrier.

It’s not “absolute insanity.” It’s not cruel.

Do you know any children born from surrogacy or are you just projecting?

To that fetus the carrier is ITS MOTHER!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t really an issue of progressive or not. There is a just a different conception of human dignity and the role of the market in Europe than the US. In their view it infringes human dignity to allow “renting wombs”. Whereas in the US you tend to believe that people should have the right to make money from their body parts if they want to.

And, in the US there is little thought given to the welfare of the resulting baby, which is also consistent with the US versus Europe. The concern is not just exploitation of women, it’s also exploitation of the baby.

It’s not exploitation of anyone in the US. You should be allowed to carry a child for someone else, if that’s what you want to do. Treating grown women like children and telling them what they can do with their bodies is a scary trend and it’s increasing.

We don’t even allow newborn puppies to be taken from their mothers because it’s cruel. It is absolute insanity that we are supposed to pretend that a baby yanked from its birth mother moments after birth does not grieve and is not aware of that. Babies recognize the scent, sound, feel, and more of their biological mothers. Yet we are supposed to pretend all of these doesn’t happen to preserve the feelings of adults.

Often the surrogate is not the biological mother. She’s the carrier.

It’s not “absolute insanity.” It’s not cruel.

Do you know any children born from surrogacy or are you just projecting?

To that fetus the carrier is ITS MOTHER!

You’re the one who mentioned biological, which may or may not be the case.

It’s fine to disagree with the practice. It’s another thing to completely stop others from doing it if that’s what they need. Are you against adoption too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It isn’t really an issue of progressive or not. There is a just a different conception of human dignity and the role of the market in Europe than the US. In their view it infringes human dignity to allow “renting wombs”. Whereas in the US you tend to believe that people should have the right to make money from their body parts if they want to.

And, in the US there is little thought given to the welfare of the resulting baby, which is also consistent with the US versus Europe. The concern is not just exploitation of women, it’s also exploitation of the baby.

It’s not exploitation of anyone in the US. You should be allowed to carry a child for someone else, if that’s what you want to do. Treating grown women like children and telling them what they can do with their bodies is a scary trend and it’s increasing.

We don’t even allow newborn puppies to be taken from their mothers because it’s cruel. It is absolute insanity that we are supposed to pretend that a baby yanked from its birth mother moments after birth does not grieve and is not aware of that. Babies recognize the scent, sound, feel, and more of their biological mothers. Yet we are supposed to pretend all of these doesn’t happen to preserve the feelings of adults.

Often the surrogate is not the biological mother. She’s the carrier.

It’s not “absolute insanity.” It’s not cruel.

Do you know any children born from surrogacy or are you just projecting?

To that fetus the carrier is ITS MOTHER!

You’re the one who mentioned biological, which may or may not be the case.

It’s fine to disagree with the practice. It’s another thing to completely stop others from doing it if that’s what they need. Are you against adoption too?

Adopted babies also grieve for the "carrier" with whom it bonded in utero. Now that women can have babies without being married adoption is getting rarer and rarer. So now Americans steal babies from Russia, China, all over the world like John Roberts stole his children from Ireland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most of Europe is also Roman Catholic and abortion is a mortal sin.

Well, but most of Europe. Maybe most of France and Italy. Certainly not Germany.

Germany has a lot of Catholics.

Not really. iDe Deutsche Bischofskonferenz und die 27 (Erz-)Diözesen der katholischen Kirche in Deutschland haben heute (27. DDJuni 2024 die Kirchenstatistik für das Jahr 2023 veröffentlicht. In Deutschland machen die Katholiken 24 Prozent der Gesamtbevölkerung aus (20.345.872 Kirchenmitglieder).

Since you are likely not German, let me help you with that. The Conference of German Catholic Biships stated that Catholics are 24% of the total population of Churchmembers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sister lives in Italy, is married to an Italian man, and has been an Italian citizen for nearly 20 years. They had an incredibly hard time conceiving. She was dead set against surrogacy, which is fine and was her personal choice so they ended up researching adoption. Due to their advanced age 39 and 40, they were told they would never be able to adopt an infant. They would at best be able to adopt a 7 or 8-year-old. They opted for IVF. The Italian government pays for 5 rounds and they ended up having a girl after the 5th round.

I think it's extremely irrational and irresponsible to outlaw surrogacy while at the same time sponsoring IVF. Especially in a country that struggles with birth rates so much.

Personally, I think it is extremely irrational and irresponsible to encourage surrogacy. It’s harmful to women and to babies.

Please stop. Then you need to bad adoption too. You make no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most of Europe is also Roman Catholic and abortion is a mortal sin.

Well, but most of Europe. Maybe most of France and Italy. Certainly not Germany.

Europe is secular. Italy is only slightly less secular.

Hahaha clearly you know boring about Italy or Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Most of Europe is also Roman Catholic and abortion is a mortal sin.

Well, but most of Europe. Maybe most of France and Italy. Certainly not Germany.

Europe is secular. Italy is only slightly less secular.

Hahaha clearly you know boring about Italy or Europe.

18.8% of Italians attend church once a week.

31% of Italians never attend church unless for weddings, funerals, etc