Is W&M bro-y?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aren't like 30-50% of college age males bros? I thin they are everywhere and the way that they are will end up dominating most schools in a way that seems like all the guys there are bros. But every school has plenty of non-bros, too.

It's a ridiculous term used as a pejorative by insecure and intolerant people. To your point, they are everywhere, not because there is some sort of explosion of toxic masculinity or whatever new term is en-vouge to disparage young males, at a particular school...but because many young males are confident, social, and like to dress nice. Same with young women. Nothing wrong with that unless you are of the ilk that feels some sort of insecurity or misplaced moral superiority about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:and by aspirations, I meant kids who wanted to have big horizons in this world - not make money or win prestigious prizes, but become people who had broad and interesting world views and experiences however they defined those for themselves.
Since we are talking about impressions, mine was that it was rather vanilla, overall, as a culture. That doesn't mean I am a bad person to not think it's a place that felt engaging to me.

Okay, I’ll bite. Please share with everyone the name of the college that you decided WAS worthy of your extraordinary aspirations. Where did you go?

HYP. But I would have chosen a lot of other places before W&M many years ago.
Again, though - that is MY impression. I am not saying it's truth objectively. And I am remembering my impressions as an 18 year old, not a crowd known to be super mature. But isn't this thread re: impressions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:and by aspirations, I meant kids who wanted to have big horizons in this world - not make money or win prestigious prizes, but become people who had broad and interesting world views and experiences however they defined those for themselves.
Since we are talking about impressions, mine was that it was rather vanilla, overall, as a culture. That doesn't mean I am a bad person to not think it's a place that felt engaging to me.

I don't think you're a "bad person," but I still hold my original impression that you may not be perceptive to nuance and may not be great at seeing outside yourself. This isn't about whether you/your kid found WM engaging, but how you talk about people/culture. I hear echoes of a script from a bad 80s teen movie: the misunderstood teen who feels more creative than generic people with their 2.2 kids. Sounded like something I would have said as a 13 year old punk rock kid (and by 18 would have been embarrassed by how ham-fisted and cliché it sounded). Writing "generic people" and "rather vanilla" doesn't trigger for me an impression of someone who has broad and interesting worldviews and can recognize them in others. Rather it's a red flag to watch out for a cheesy type who fancies themselves more interesting than everyone else. My bias of course. And you're responding to a thread titled "Is W&M bro-y?" so there's that too.

My DH does short form documentary filmmaking for his work so he's used to quickly getting a sense of place and generating open-ended conversations with various people, and so sort of approached college visits that way. We found WM to have a really interesting culture. Students seem outwardly to be more stylistically and politically moderate compared to some of the other schools we visited and Greek life/party culture was also sort of moderate--not absent like some LACs, but not very dominant like others. But every conversation with a student/group of students held surprises. We were struck by how articulate, broad-minded but diverse students were in their thinking whether they were talking about college life, marine science, international relations, fashion, academics, music --whatever. As a group, compared to other schools of similar academic caliber, they had distinctive insights--but seemed less certain and more flexible and open in their thinking and views. They seemed very aware and curious about the world. I personally value this combination highly and wondered what the school did to cultivate it.

Tldr: our impression of WM was not "bro-y" nor "rather vanilla" but an interesting, open-minded place.

Yes, I see where you are coming from. I think if I chose to write more or if we talked in person it would be a more nuanced conversation. But if we are reducing this to a couple words, those were my impressions. I didn't sense a lot of adventurous spirits. Who knows, maybe I was hosted in the wrong group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:and by aspirations, I meant kids who wanted to have big horizons in this world - not make money or win prestigious prizes, but become people who had broad and interesting world views and experiences however they defined those for themselves.
Since we are talking about impressions, mine was that it was rather vanilla, overall, as a culture. That doesn't mean I am a bad person to not think it's a place that felt engaging to me.

Okay, I’ll bite. Please share with everyone the name of the college that you decided WAS worthy of your extraordinary aspirations. Where did you go?

HYP. But I would have chosen a lot of other places before W&M many years ago.
Again, though - that is MY impression. I am not saying it's truth objectively. And I am remembering my impressions as an 18 year old, not a crowd known to be super mature. But isn't this thread re: impressions?

But your impressions of how many decades ago, how are they useful today (no snark intended)?
Especially when it comes to admissions realities, folks here say don't pay attention to anything that happened prior to 2021 (I agree wholeheartedly with this).
As the parent of a current student at W&M, you will find all kinds of people there - extroverts, introverts, social in terms of Greek life, social in terms of the HUGE array of other clubs. It is a wonderful university and I wish everyone well in RD tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

I graduated from VT in 1992 I certainly don’t think I’m an authority on it now or even what it’s like today.

I loved my time there, got into grad school and have had a fantastic career for 30 years.

Most of my best friends are still the girls I met on my dorm hall the first few days there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I graduated from VT in 1992 I certainly don’t think I’m an authority on it now or even what it’s like today.

I loved my time there, got into grad school and have had a fantastic career for 30 years.

Most of my best friends are still the girls I met on my dorm hall the first few days there.

I say that to mean someone who us middle aged really can’t speak to current environment at any of the schools. 20-30 years is a very long time. Ask your nieces and nephews if they are there or recent grads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:and by aspirations, I meant kids who wanted to have big horizons in this world - not make money or win prestigious prizes, but become people who had broad and interesting world views and experiences however they defined those for themselves.
Since we are talking about impressions, mine was that it was rather vanilla, overall, as a culture. That doesn't mean I am a bad person to not think it's a place that felt engaging to me.

I don't think you're a "bad person," but I still hold my original impression that you may not be perceptive to nuance and may not be great at seeing outside yourself. This isn't about whether you/your kid found WM engaging, but how you talk about people/culture. I hear echoes of a script from a bad 80s teen movie: the misunderstood teen who feels more creative than generic people with their 2.2 kids. Sounded like something I would have said as a 13 year old punk rock kid (and by 18 would have been embarrassed by how ham-fisted and cliché it sounded). Writing "generic people" and "rather vanilla" doesn't trigger for me an impression of someone who has broad and interesting worldviews and can recognize them in others. Rather it's a red flag to watch out for a cheesy type who fancies themselves more interesting than everyone else. My bias of course. And you're responding to a thread titled "Is W&M bro-y?" so there's that too.

My DH does short form documentary filmmaking for his work so he's used to quickly getting a sense of place and generating open-ended conversations with various people, and so sort of approached college visits that way. We found WM to have a really interesting culture. Students seem outwardly to be more stylistically and politically moderate compared to some of the other schools we visited and Greek life/party culture was also sort of moderate--not absent like some LACs, but not very dominant like others. But every conversation with a student/group of students held surprises. We were struck by how articulate, broad-minded but diverse students were in their thinking whether they were talking about college life, marine science, international relations, fashion, academics, music --whatever. As a group, compared to other schools of similar academic caliber, they had distinctive insights--but seemed less certain and more flexible and open in their thinking and views. They seemed very aware and curious about the world. I personally value this combination highly and wondered what the school did to cultivate it.

Tldr: our impression of WM was not "bro-y" nor "rather vanilla" but an interesting, open-minded place.

This was the exact thing that impressed us with the students- and we talked to a lot of them- from the panels, to just random students we saw in the cafeteria. We asked questions and they were so thoughtful with their answers.

[Anonymous]

19:38 here again.
Wanted to ask the PP whose DH does short form documentary filmmaking-- did you happen to find a similar students in other schools? if so, do you mind sharing? Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

I went there 30 years ago, so within the "decades" you reference and this is just wrong. I have had friends and kids who have been there since and they can confirm this is wrong. This is the stereotype that people mindlessly repeat. I met and became friends with lots of boys who had perfectly normal social skills, were straight, were in no way "quirky" and they all would have been just fine at UVA or VT (although I'm amused that that's the standard you use). They were smart, funny, good guys. Some were jocks, some drank and partied a lot, some didn't, etc. Normal cross section of American 18-21 year olds. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s giving me quirky vibes not bro vibes

My impression from years ago and my kid's now is that it's very, very generic people who want a condo then a townhouse then a single family home in Vienna or certainly NoVa and then to have 2.2 kids and a dog, and talk about the commute and taxes and the weather.

Isn’t that like most of the people on this website? I think you mean that in a negative way but I think that’s probably where most people from a lot of good schools end up - substitute NYC suburb, Boston suburb, and so on for Vienna. I went to an Ivy and everyone is 30 years later living in various suburbs with a couple kids, a house and maybe some pets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

I went there 30 years ago, so within the "decades" you reference and this is just wrong. I have had friends and kids who have been there since and they can confirm this is wrong. This is the stereotype that people mindlessly repeat. I met and became friends with lots of boys who had perfectly normal social skills, were straight, were in no way "quirky" and they all would have been just fine at UVA or VT (although I'm amused that that's the standard you use). They were smart, funny, good guys. Some were jocks, some drank and partied a lot, some didn't, etc. Normal cross section of American 18-21 year olds. Period.

Nope, but nice try.

If the male students at W&M didn’t strongly tend to fall into the categories mentioned earlier, it would be more popular among high school boys and the female-to-male ratio wouldn’t be so skewed. It’s just how it is, and has been for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

I went there 30 years ago, so within the "decades" you reference and this is just wrong. I have had friends and kids who have been there since and they can confirm this is wrong. This is the stereotype that people mindlessly repeat. I met and became friends with lots of boys who had perfectly normal social skills, were straight, were in no way "quirky" and they all would have been just fine at UVA or VT (although I'm amused that that's the standard you use). They were smart, funny, good guys. Some were jocks, some drank and partied a lot, some didn't, etc. Normal cross section of American 18-21 year olds. Period.

Nope, but nice try.

If the male students at W&M didn’t strongly tend to fall into the categories mentioned earlier, it would be more popular among high school boys and the female-to-male ratio wouldn’t be so skewed. It’s just how it is, and has been for years.

Just curious. Did you go there? If not, where are you getting your information? And if you did go there, which category were you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

I went there 30 years ago, so within the "decades" you reference and this is just wrong. I have had friends and kids who have been there since and they can confirm this is wrong. This is the stereotype that people mindlessly repeat. I met and became friends with lots of boys who had perfectly normal social skills, were straight, were in no way "quirky" and they all would have been just fine at UVA or VT (although I'm amused that that's the standard you use). They were smart, funny, good guys. Some were jocks, some drank and partied a lot, some didn't, etc. Normal cross section of American 18-21 year olds. Period.

Nope, but nice try.

If the male students at W&M didn’t strongly tend to fall into the categories mentioned earlier, it would be more popular among high school boys and the female-to-male ratio wouldn’t be so skewed. It’s just how it is, and has been for years.

W&M and UVA have extremely similar gender ratios.

For the class of 2027:
%Male %Female
UVA 44% 56%
W&M 41% 59%


Both are heavily skewed with more women. At a bigger school like UVA that's even more of a perceivable difference. So are you saying UVA isn't popular among high school boys either?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is just pathetic. ALL schools have a variety of people. Men, women, academics, partiers, athletes, musicians, artists--the list goes on. It is a university or a college. I like to hope there's a healthy cross section of men and women. Just gross to label entire student bodies a certain way.

I dunno. W&M has been fairly true to brand for decades. The guys who go there are either recruited athletes, gay, or smart kids who are a little quirky or wouldn’t have quite enough social skills to thrive at a UVA or VT. In comparison, there’s a broader range of personalities at UVA and VT. It’s just how it is at W&M and, again, it’s been this way for decades.

I went there 30 years ago, so within the "decades" you reference and this is just wrong. I have had friends and kids who have been there since and they can confirm this is wrong. This is the stereotype that people mindlessly repeat. I met and became friends with lots of boys who had perfectly normal social skills, were straight, were in no way "quirky" and they all would have been just fine at UVA or VT (although I'm amused that that's the standard you use). They were smart, funny, good guys. Some were jocks, some drank and partied a lot, some didn't, etc. Normal cross section of American 18-21 year olds. Period.

Nope, but nice try.

If the male students at W&M didn’t strongly tend to fall into the categories mentioned earlier, it would be more popular among high school boys and the female-to-male ratio wouldn’t be so skewed. It’s just how it is, and has been for years.

W&M and UVA have extremely similar gender ratios.

For the class of 2027:
%Male %Female
UVA 44% 56%
W&M 41% 59%


Both are heavily skewed with more women. At a bigger school like UVA that's even more of a perceivable difference. So are you saying UVA isn't popular among high school boys either?

This is typical now for Liberal Arts. W&M is not out of line. Compare W&M to the component of UVA that is very similar in terms of majors, the College of Arts and Science for Fall 2023 first time in College enrollment and you will see W&M has a slightly higher male to female ratio:

UVA: 1,158 Males; 1,845 Females; 3,003 Total. 38.6% Male and 61.4% Female
W&M: 662 Males; 957 Females; 1,619 Total. 40.9% Male and 59.1% Female

Add to the comparison UNC Chapel Hill (Fall 2022 data), which is similar to W&M in that it does not have a significant engineering program (which tends male):

UNC: 1,673 Males; 2,752 Females; 4,425 Total. 37.8% Male and 62.2% Female.