Is it time for private school vouchers in Montgomery County?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Would you take your child out of MCPS if there was a private school voucher program so Montgomery County residents had school choice?

Absolutely. This will be a great option for the people who wants better quality education for their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes but they should be used to get the kids whose riffraff parents haven’t raised them right OUT of public schools. Then maybe MCPS will become a nice place to learn and work.

Private schools would not accept those kids in the first place. It’s such a competitive admission environment because of the pandemic that they can be as picky as they want. Your little $2-3k voucher for a school that costs $40k isn’t going to sway them to accept you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Econ 101: Give $10K vouchers to lots of people, privates will raise tuition since there's so much more money floating around.

I hope you oppose Universal Basic Income for the same reason.

And I hope you recognize that all the stimulus money Biden poured into the economy has resulted in ridiculous inflation.

inflation is largely from supply chain issues. Used car prices are making up between 30-40% of the inflation number alone. The other part of it is the energy prices which bone saw loving MBS in Saudi Barbaria is keeping high because he wants his puppet Kushner and Trump back in office.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/11/inflation-saudi-arabia-biden-mbs-oil/

Inflation also exists because corporations can drive up prices and then pat themselves on the back for making big profits

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great way to shift wealth towards the wealthy while reducing effectiveness for the rest by decimating economies of scale. It's a win-win for the self-centered, with the added bonuses of 1) being able to note the resulting degradation of public education as a support for the "need" to continue voucher programs and 2) being able to subsidize single-view religious teaching.

But, hey, there's always one or two edge cases from the rest to whom they can point as benefitting. "See, in America, anyone can get ahead. Let the invisible hand of the market do its thing!"

What a crock...

Ha ha! What are the "economies of scale" that provide benefits to MCPS consumers? The top notch curriculum generated by their Central Office? School lunches? Of, never mind, subsidized by the Feds. HR? Talk to the applicants who don't hear back for months. Etc. Your whole logic is disjointed. If public schools are left with fewer high needs students perhaps they can specialize.

I think it would be the opposite it would be most likely that the highest needs students will be the ones who don't get school choice because only a few select schools cater to students with IEPs and there aren't a lot of private schools with esol programs

Students with disabilities are a very diverse population of students with various special needs. Very few students would need services that would be the equivalent to a 100% pull out from a general education environment. Also, some private school students still qualify for MCPS special education services.

I was frustrated with the treatment and lack of support for one child that I transferred him out of MCPS to a non-parochial private school that had about 12 students per class and a disability support counselor. My child thrived because the teachers had time to give him the attention he needed. Much of what would have been considered special education services to learn organizational, time management, and study skills was woven into the universal design of their curriculum. My son’s school also offered a supervised study hall period in the library so the disability support counselor would have periodic checks which help with the transition to the school. The school took the educational data for my child, the MCPS plan, had one meeting with my child and myself, and fully implemented our agreed to plan. A truly positive and rewarding experience.

I would say, before we chose the private we selected, we looked at other schools. Not all privates had the ability to meet my son’s needs and schools like Lab and McLean were not the least restrictive environment for my child. Privates are not one size fits all institutions, however when there’s a good fit, the environment is an appropriate remedy when MCPS doesn’t have the resources to implement a child’s IEP.

Even if they don’t need pull out support, they still require something more than the status quo. Whether that is additional time on test, smaller classes, or different curriculum, all of which comes at a cost. Lets take smaller classes for instance. Many kids, special ed or neuro typical could benefit from smaller classes. But that requires more space, more teachers, etc etc. So yes a smaller private can offer this, but its not necessarily less expensive or less resource intensive.

Much of Special Education would benefit all students. That’s why a universal design of implementing a plan for a disabled child is a best practice in education. Any general education teacher will say class size is key as far as how well they can meet the needs of all students.

As is, MCPS is at a low point in meeting the needs of students with disabilities. Complaints and law suits are on the rise and MCPS is wasting funds for noncompliance. How do they dig themselves out of the mess left over from ignoring students with disabilities for the past two years?

A voucher system would provide a mechanism to allow students who MCPS doesn’t meet their needs to go elsewhere. This could be aimed at disabled students who have needs for more attention and support, but it could also be exceptional students who need more enrichment but didn’t get chosen in the magnet school lottery process.

If enrollment declines in MCPS schools, it would lower the staffing and infrastructure needs of the entire school system. Less size, less bureaucracy, and focus for what MCPS does best - the middle 50% of students.

You know it's not well advertised by mcps but there are ways to get mcps to pay the private school tuition of a student who is not being well served in public education. I have some friends who took that route and their daughter is in private school that services students with IEPs. However this took a lot of time and advocacy and documentation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes but they should be used to get the kids whose riffraff parents haven’t raised them right OUT of public schools. Then maybe MCPS will become a nice place to learn and work.

Oh you can send them to private school that doesn't mean private school will keep them. They will definitely cook up an excuse to kick that kid out especially if they're a voucher kid and it's not like the parents can afford to donate thousands of dollars on top of tuition.

In DC you would have kids who got into a charter school and then get kicked out a few months later and then they would move on to another school. There were students who had cycled through 4 or 5 schools in the space of 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great way to shift wealth towards the wealthy while reducing effectiveness for the rest by decimating economies of scale. It's a win-win for the self-centered, with the added bonuses of 1) being able to note the resulting degradation of public education as a support for the "need" to continue voucher programs and 2) being able to subsidize single-view religious teaching.

But, hey, there's always one or two edge cases from the rest to whom they can point as benefitting. "See, in America, anyone can get ahead. Let the invisible hand of the market do its thing!"

What a crock...

Ha ha! What are the "economies of scale" that provide benefits to MCPS consumers? The top notch curriculum generated by their Central Office? School lunches? Of, never mind, subsidized by the Feds. HR? Talk to the applicants who don't hear back for months. Etc. Your whole logic is disjointed. If public schools are left with fewer high needs students perhaps they can specialize.

I think it would be the opposite it would be most likely that the highest needs students will be the ones who don't get school choice because only a few select schools cater to students with IEPs and there aren't a lot of private schools with esol programs

Students with disabilities are a very diverse population of students with various special needs. Very few students would need services that would be the equivalent to a 100% pull out from a general education environment. Also, some private school students still qualify for MCPS special education services.

I was frustrated with the treatment and lack of support for one child that I transferred him out of MCPS to a non-parochial private school that had about 12 students per class and a disability support counselor. My child thrived because the teachers had time to give him the attention he needed. Much of what would have been considered special education services to learn organizational, time management, and study skills was woven into the universal design of their curriculum. My son’s school also offered a supervised study hall period in the library so the disability support counselor would have periodic checks which help with the transition to the school. The school took the educational data for my child, the MCPS plan, had one meeting with my child and myself, and fully implemented our agreed to plan. A truly positive and rewarding experience.

I would say, before we chose the private we selected, we looked at other schools. Not all privates had the ability to meet my son’s needs and schools like Lab and McLean were not the least restrictive environment for my child. Privates are not one size fits all institutions, however when there’s a good fit, the environment is an appropriate remedy when MCPS doesn’t have the resources to implement a child’s IEP.

And how much are you paying in tuition for 12 person classes?

We received a scholarship. It was similar to applying for college financial aid - showed tax returns, met application deadlines, reapplying each year. With the scholarship, the amount is $25,000. We are not wealthy but I took on a new job, we pulled $10,000 out of my child’s 529 plan per year, and we accepted money from grandparents to cover remaining tuition and book fees.

So you already shown that a voucher system would only work for those who could afford to pay tens of thousands of dollars more than the cost of the voucher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic always makes me laugh. What is the most liberal place on the planet? Many would say the Netherlands. Legalized pot. Prostitution, legal. Free needles for addicts. And yep - direct pay (vouchers) for parents to choose their schools. The takoma Park crowd never takes liberalism to its logical conclusion with education. If you simply voucher the 16,000 per student MCPS supposedly pays to educate our kids in a supersized, filthy school (here’s looking at you Wootton) kids would largely be better off. But it proves MCPS is a Democratic Party jobs program more than an education system. Hard to fathom 3 billion a year to fund such a poor excuse of an education system but here we are. Public schools need to exist but be much smaller and more responsive. Never going to happen with powers that be in the county.

Boom.

This is not the own you think it is. For so many reasons.

The Netherlands heavily subsidize and regulate their "private" schools . It's hardly a capitalist paradise. True of every well-run European country.

I know that you, Kenny-the-Intern-at-the-Federalist think $16,000 per kid is a lot of money for those greedy schools, but schools in the 1980s were routinely getting 10k or more in many places and there's been some wee inflation since then.

How will you hire qualified teachers? How will you pay them? What oversight will any of these schools have? None? And magically the free market will erase all grift and abuses from the system? No private school coaches will ever molest students. No private school students will ever bring guns or knives to school. No private schools will ever be without their trusty resource officers, because there is also an infinite number of THEM who are willing to work for a small hourly fee on a contract basis so you don't have to worry about benefits....

It must be so comforting to believe in such a magic universe, Kenny.

Kenny here. Listen you fail to realize the innovation that would happen when MCPS teachers could leave, start her own school and actually follow science-based curricula. They could do a lot better than your average MCPS school on Curriculum 2.0 drivel. So Netherlands subsidizes schools? So what? Can’t be to the tune of 3 billion a year and 1.6 operating. The US taxes nearly as much as Western Europe for a lot less benefits….if I’m Kenny then you are Dr. Monifa McNight leading a ship (Titanic) that’s hit an iceberg (COVID).

Dear Kenny,

I actually know some public school teachers who left and started their own private school. Twas all rainbows and sunshine for the first four years or so, for the 90 kids they had enrolled (I think that was the max.) Then their lack of an endowment or financing caught up with them and they had to close the school because they couldn't pay the rent. I wasn't privy to how or why they went broke, but I know they did.

Obviously, as you suggest, the thing to do is for the government to pay their expenses, they collect their 16,000 per kid, and suddenly, like magic, that is apparently a "private school." And not a government one. Even if... Oh, please. Just give up. You can't win.

You seem like a nice person who actually considered my argument. Thank you. Let’s explore the narrative so far. All I am saying is we have a failing system that put its staff ahead of its customers. The customers right now are behind and suffered real consequences for substandard product for past two years. I know I can’t convince you or anyone who is making bank on MCPS as an employee or a consultant but schools can offer a great education on far less than 16,000 a year with clear child focused plan. Catholic schools do it every day. I just think a lot of innovation is being ignored by a failed monopoly. Also, your size is making you a target for the very multinational corporations you rage against in other contexts (Pearson). Vouchers actually improve the product for all children because that’s how humans work - on fear and greed. Right now MCPS needs a kick in the teeth and vouchers would do it better then giving them another billion to hire more PR firms at 500000. (Other thread) — Love, Kenny

Dear Kenny,

I AM NOT NICE.

Your argument is a very good one. It demonstrates quite well that not everyone should go to business school. Some people are too stupid to understand and think it's all magic.

Have you considered a technical college?

Xo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes but they should be used to get the kids whose riffraff parents haven’t raised them right OUT of public schools. Then maybe MCPS will become a nice place to learn and work.

+1 Do the opposite. Put the problem kids in private/charter schools.

[Anonymous]

Students are not "customers." They are students.

One reason, Kenny, that you have this Federalist internship, is someone took a stab at educating you, patted you on the back, and encouraged your hopes and dreams. I'm not sure how familiar you are with America, but we have a vision here, imperfectly realized, that education is the great equalizer. It's what gives every child in this nation the tools they need for success.

In practice, as with everything, nothing is so simple.

But your facile notions of how markets work, how children are "customers," how teachers are suddenly failing but will magically be enabled by some kind of fairydust private school... Run by Catholics, no less! I mean, I'd be laughing hysterically if it wasn't for you being serious.

I am genuinely sorry you've been misled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes but they should be used to get the kids whose riffraff parents haven’t raised them right OUT of public schools. Then maybe MCPS will become a nice place to learn and work.

+1 Do the opposite. Put the problem kids in private/charter schools.

And if you think that kids with severe behavioral problems would last more than a couple of weeks in a private school without serious additional donations from their parents then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes but they should be used to get the kids whose riffraff parents haven’t raised them right OUT of public schools. Then maybe MCPS will become a nice place to learn and work.

+1 Do the opposite. Put the problem kids in private/charter schools.

And if you think that kids with severe behavioral problems would last more than a couple of weeks in a private school without serious additional donations from their parents then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

oh, but apparently, all we need to do is provide private school vouchers, and things would improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great way to shift wealth towards the wealthy while reducing effectiveness for the rest by decimating economies of scale. It's a win-win for the self-centered, with the added bonuses of 1) being able to note the resulting degradation of public education as a support for the "need" to continue voucher programs and 2) being able to subsidize single-view religious teaching.

But, hey, there's always one or two edge cases from the rest to whom they can point as benefitting. "See, in America, anyone can get ahead. Let the invisible hand of the market do its thing!"

What a crock...

Ha ha! What are the "economies of scale" that provide benefits to MCPS consumers? The top notch curriculum generated by their Central Office? School lunches? Of, never mind, subsidized by the Feds. HR? Talk to the applicants who don't hear back for months. Etc. Your whole logic is disjointed. If public schools are left with fewer high needs students perhaps they can specialize.

I think it would be the opposite it would be most likely that the highest needs students will be the ones who don't get school choice because only a few select schools cater to students with IEPs and there aren't a lot of private schools with esol programs

Students with disabilities are a very diverse population of students with various special needs. Very few students would need services that would be the equivalent to a 100% pull out from a general education environment. Also, some private school students still qualify for MCPS special education services.

I was frustrated with the treatment and lack of support for one child that I transferred him out of MCPS to a non-parochial private school that had about 12 students per class and a disability support counselor. My child thrived because the teachers had time to give him the attention he needed. Much of what would have been considered special education services to learn organizational, time management, and study skills was woven into the universal design of their curriculum. My son’s school also offered a supervised study hall period in the library so the disability support counselor would have periodic checks which help with the transition to the school. The school took the educational data for my child, the MCPS plan, had one meeting with my child and myself, and fully implemented our agreed to plan. A truly positive and rewarding experience.

I would say, before we chose the private we selected, we looked at other schools. Not all privates had the ability to meet my son’s needs and schools like Lab and McLean were not the least restrictive environment for my child. Privates are not one size fits all institutions, however when there’s a good fit, the environment is an appropriate remedy when MCPS doesn’t have the resources to implement a child’s IEP.

Even if they don’t need pull out support, they still require something more than the status quo. Whether that is additional time on test, smaller classes, or different curriculum, all of which comes at a cost. Lets take smaller classes for instance. Many kids, special ed or neuro typical could benefit from smaller classes. But that requires more space, more teachers, etc etc. So yes a smaller private can offer this, but its not necessarily less expensive or less resource intensive.

Much of Special Education would benefit all students. That’s why a universal design of implementing a plan for a disabled child is a best practice in education. Any general education teacher will say class size is key as far as how well they can meet the needs of all students.

As is, MCPS is at a low point in meeting the needs of students with disabilities. Complaints and law suits are on the rise and MCPS is wasting funds for noncompliance. How do they dig themselves out of the mess left over from ignoring students with disabilities for the past two years?

A voucher system would provide a mechanism to allow students who MCPS doesn’t meet their needs to go elsewhere. This could be aimed at disabled students who have needs for more attention and support, but it could also be exceptional students who need more enrichment but didn’t get chosen in the magnet school lottery process.

If enrollment declines in MCPS schools, it would lower the staffing and infrastructure needs of the entire school system. Less size, less bureaucracy, and focus for what MCPS does best - the middle 50% of students.

You know it's not well advertised by mcps but there are ways to get mcps to pay the private school tuition of a student who is not being well served in public education. I have some friends who took that route and their daughter is in private school that services students with IEPs. However this took a lot of time and advocacy and documentation

The only way to get private special education placement at public expense is to hire an attorney (at around $500 per hour) and take MCPS to Due Process. A huge gamble for parents, most do not have the $50,000 to $75,000 for the risk. MCPS legal fees do not get paid out of the MCPS budget. They are paid out of the Montgomery County Government Budget so the sky is the limit as they fight a prolonged legal battle against a disabled child.

Many families of students with disabilities, especially after the hell of the last two years, want more than endless meetings that do nothing for their child because MCPS never fully implements an IEP. For some students, smaller classes are better. At the end of the day, as a parent I feel my child has been lied to and cheated by a school system that was quick to say his needs could not be met in an online setting, not give him support and services to get caught up, then was real quick in January to pull the plug again because staffing was needed to babysit not provide the services my child needed. MCPS treats students with disabilities as undesirable afterthoughts. I would be happy to take a pittance of my tax dollars to take my child to an environment that has the resources and who wants to teach him.

[Anonymous]

Many students wouldn't last a month in private school. They actually enforce rules there. They will take your kid's phone out of his hand and keep it. They have mandatory detention after school. My kid skipped a virtual class last month and got a week of after-school detention at his private school. They don't care if your kid already has after-school plans. Student's grades wouldn't be inflated anymore either. No retakes there. Late work gets a 0.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many students wouldn't last a month in private school. They actually enforce rules there. They will take your kid's phone out of his hand and keep it. They have mandatory detention after school. My kid skipped a virtual class last month and got a week of after-school detention at his private school. They don't care if your kid already has after-school plans. Student's grades wouldn't be inflated anymore either. No retakes there. Late work gets a 0.

Don't know about that but this whole thread is preposterous. Almost nobody in Moco would vote this nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be damned if my tax dollars go to private schools that pump out a bunch of Kavanaugh's and Youngkin's like the white supremacist factory that many of them are

yet I'm sure you'd set your kids to harvard/yale/etc in a heartbeat and have no problems with your "tax dollars" going there