Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so now the IDF shot dead three hostages in gaza that had escaped Hamas

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-15/ty-article-live/senior-u-s-official-hamas-leader-sinwars-days-are-numbered/0000018c-6b87-db38-a9fc-eba7b5250000

i know the situation is difficult but i wonder how this is linked to the trigger happy tendency of the IDF, see the Israeli civilian who faced the attackers in Jerusalem only to be shot dead by Israeli police while on the ground with her hands up pleading for his life and not being a threat. outrage only because he was a Israeli hero and everything was caught on camera, if he was an arab and no cameras were around then who cares

Is this true? Or misinformation? Did IDF actually kill three hostages?

From what I understand, the hostages were sent out in the midst of an active firefight in one of the currently heaviest combat areas.

Well that is not what the IDF said yesterday. Also there are not firefights in Gaza because Hamas is not standing and fighting. The Israelis just bomb everything and pick through the rumble. Any civilians approaching an IDF unit is shot on sight.

Yes, there are firefights. IDF is constantly being shot at with RPGs and AK-47s and Hamas snipers. And no, "any civilian approaching an IDF unit" is NOT "shot on sight." That is not the protocol. You totally do not know what you are talking about on any of this. Whatsoever.

But then why did they shoot these hostages? They did nothing threatening.

The facts do not support your narrative.

According to the IDF, the soldiers who killed the hostages did not follow protocol.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-16/ty-article/.premium/preliminary-idf-report-hostages-killed-by-soldiers-waved-white-flag-yelled-help-hebrew/0000018c-7283-db38-a9fc-fba363100000

A preliminary IDF investigation of Friday's incident, in which three Israeli hostages who managed to escape Hamas captivity in Gaza were mistakenly identified as enemy and shot dead by the soldiers, concludes that they were killed because the troops did not follow the army's rules of engagement.

According to the investigation, a soldier who was stationed on one of the upper floors of a building in the area has identified three figures who held a long stick that had a white fabric attached to it. The report states that, for some reason, the soldier felt threatened and opened fire at the group.

Two hostages were hit and fell to the ground, and the third managed to escape into a nearby building. At the same time, the soldier reported to his commanding officer that he had encountered enemy militants.

The commander then arrived at the scene, while another IDF squad that was nearby followed the third hostage, who managed to escape into a hiding place inside the building. The report says that as the soldiers approached the building, they began to hear shouts in Hebrew, asking for their help.

The Israeli hostage who was hiding inside the building came out and ran inside again. According to the soldiers, they believed that it was a Hamas member who was trying to "pull them" into a trap. They proceeded to enter the building, where they killed the hostage.

When the soldiers retrieved the three bodies, they noticed identifying marks that raised their suspicions that they were indeed Israeli hostages who managed to escape.

I think the best thing you can say is that these soldiers are probably so turned around and stressed by not being able to tell Hamas from ordinary Gazans - because Hamaz hides and disguises itself among ordinary Gazans - that they made a tragic mistake that you can understand, if you put yourself in this situation. This is not to excuse, or diminish. But imagine how bad things must be there, to make this kind of horrible mistake.

This is me, pollyanna - but I hope that this tragic event will turn enough Israelis against the war as it is being pursued, that the government will be forced back into real negotiations. Of course that then raises the question again of who they would even negotiate with - and if there is ANY party competent to carry on negotiations that can also be trusted. I don't know. But it does seem like a lot of people in Israel - not to mention outside of Israel - don't want things to keep going as they are.

I am one of the zionists who keeps getting screeched at here. I believe Israel has a right to defend itself. I also don't see how this can keep going, as it is. I take my lead from the leftie Israelis - the kinds of people who lived at the kibbutzes that Hamas came to slaughter.

We are only hearing about this failure of protocol because the dead are Israeli hostages. I think it’s fair to assume that there are lots and lots of failures of protocol that lead to shooting innocents. That the pro Israeli brigade assumes are Hamas or combatants. It’s pretty clear these soldiers have no clue and are on a hair trigger. Israel needs to stop. Their intelligence is suspect. Their troops are not well trained. They can’t remember their humanity. In these circumstances, they should not be trusted with weapons.

I don't think it's quite that simple. But I can understand why people are feeling this way.

[Anonymous]

IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

Israel’s reputation IS in tatters, and they have guaranteed through their own military strategy (short-sighted and disproportionate) that there will be more generations of anti-Israeli militants to come. So stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

If they win? Probably yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

Israel’s reputation IS in tatters, and they have guaranteed through their own military strategy (short-sighted and disproportionate) that there will be more generations of anti-Israeli militants to come. So stupid.

I hear this argument a lot. But I don't see any evidence that the counterfactual works out better. Did not pursuing this strategy prevent Oct 7? Did it lead to peace?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s amazing how fast the hour of cards that is Israel is falling. People are now seeing that this murderous regime has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with racist ethno-centric thuggery.

My Jewish grandmother is saying things that I never thought is hear her say. Wondering aloud whether Israel has been a big mistake for Jews. (Not that the impact on Jews is more significant than the horrific damage Israel is doing to Palestinians).

Stop calling your Grandmother Jewish, if what you are saying is true, she is not Jewish, and claiming otherwise is absolutely disgusting. Like the Jews that happily helped Hitler execute his evil plans. It sits in the face of actual Jewish people who would never dare question Israel’s humanitarian mission.

https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-771479

You are a delusional, fairytale peddling, white supremacist weirdo. You support an apartheid state that has been inflicting terrorism on the indigenous people of the land it sits on for decades. One with a military that is comprised of keystone kops who apparently cannot hit the broad side of a barn on their best day, even with the U.S. outfitting them with bleeding edge weapons systems and training. You cry incessantly about existential threats despite the fact that the U.S. already provides your beloved Israel with an insurmountable military advantage over every other state in the region, even in the event that they happened to joined forces.

You applaud the U.S. catering to Israel's interests above all others, and you see nothing wrong with it being on welfare queen mode for over 50 years now. You don't give a rip about compromising the safety of Americans by trying to inextricably link us to Israel's malignant actions in the Middle East, which has resulted in seething resentment from MANY nations. You've made us a laughingstock on the world stage, blocking U.N. resolutions that 100+ other nations have supported. You dehumanize the people you and the Zionist movement have displaced and terrorized for the past 100+ years, constantly complaining when they try to fight back from time to time. And you think you're better and smarter than everyone else, too.

In fact, you think you're part of some mythical "Chosen People" who get to tell others what they really think, and who get to tear words like "anti-semitism" to tatters by misusing those very words in every third sentence to escape your lips. Actual anti-semitism is lost in the haystack of accusations. But more than anything else, you're really you're just a weak, feeble stooge descended from Kyiv or Poznań who irritates just about everyone unfortunate enough to cross your path.

Take a hike, clown.

And you support Hamas and hope for the day that they succeed in their genocidal rage against us Jewish people. You dismiss the holy text you claim to revere, and refuse us our place in the holy land. You wish for America to disgrace their strongest ally to join in alliance with the terrorist group Hamas because the fire of your anti-semitism burns so brightly and deeply within your heart.

Your loyalty is so far from Israel that you may never be considered Jewish again, nor shall your hateful grandmother, and in anger over this reality you lash out against those who love, trust, and support our ancestral home because you very much can see the new holocaust brewing both here and abroad, dreamed up by tiny men and women such as Joe Biden and Rashida Tlaib. Perhaps once Israel saves you from the new concentration camps, after their liberation of the United States, you can find the peace of Judaism again.

[Anonymous]

Israel shoots their own hostages well because they are obviously shooting Palestinians all the time and oops shot themselves for once. Gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s amazing how fast the hour of cards that is Israel is falling. People are now seeing that this murderous regime has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with racist ethno-centric thuggery.

My Jewish grandmother is saying things that I never thought is hear her say. Wondering aloud whether Israel has been a big mistake for Jews. (Not that the impact on Jews is more significant than the horrific damage Israel is doing to Palestinians).

Stop calling your Grandmother Jewish, if what you are saying is true, she is not Jewish, and claiming otherwise is absolutely disgusting. Like the Jews that happily helped Hitler execute his evil plans. It sits in the face of actual Jewish people who would never dare question Israel’s humanitarian mission.

https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-771479

You are a delusional, fairytale peddling, white supremacist weirdo. You support an apartheid state that has been inflicting terrorism on the indigenous people of the land it sits on for decades. One with a military that is comprised of keystone kops who apparently cannot hit the broad side of a barn on their best day, even with the U.S. outfitting them with bleeding edge weapons systems and training. You cry incessantly about existential threats despite the fact that the U.S. already provides your beloved Israel with an insurmountable military advantage over every other state in the region, even in the event that they happened to joined forces.

You applaud the U.S. catering to Israel's interests above all others, and you see nothing wrong with it being on welfare queen mode for over 50 years now. You don't give a rip about compromising the safety of Americans by trying to inextricably link us to Israel's malignant actions in the Middle East, which has resulted in seething resentment from MANY nations. You've made us a laughingstock on the world stage, blocking U.N. resolutions that 100+ other nations have supported. You dehumanize the people you and the Zionist movement have displaced and terrorized for the past 100+ years, constantly complaining when they try to fight back from time to time. And you think you're better and smarter than everyone else, too.

In fact, you think you're part of some mythical "Chosen People" who get to tell others what they really think, and who get to tear words like "anti-semitism" to tatters by misusing those very words in every third sentence to escape your lips. Actual anti-semitism is lost in the haystack of accusations. But more than anything else, you're really you're just a weak, feeble stooge descended from Kyiv or Poznań who irritates just about everyone unfortunate enough to cross your path.

Take a hike, clown.

And you support Hamas and hope for the day that they succeed in their genocidal rage against us Jewish people. You dismiss the holy text you claim to revere, and refuse us our place in the holy land. You wish for America to disgrace their strongest ally to join in alliance with the terrorist group Hamas because the fire of your anti-semitism burns so brightly and deeply within your heart.

Your loyalty is so far from Israel that you may never be considered Jewish again, nor shall your hateful grandmother, and in anger over this reality you lash out against those who love, trust, and support our ancestral home because you very much can see the new holocaust brewing both here and abroad, dreamed up by tiny men and women such as Joe Biden and Rashida Tlaib. Perhaps once Israel saves you from the new concentration camps, after their liberation of the United States, you can find the peace of Judaism again.

Plot twist

You’re confusing posters, and both of them are opposed to Hamas and any acts undertaken by Hamas (or any other person or entity) to harm innocent, non-combatant civilians.

Not sure what more you need to be convinced, but at least this poster is 100% supportive of dismantling Hamas, destroying its capacity to reconstitute, and holding all parties involved in the 10/7 attacks fully accountable for what they did during those attacks. I have also on multiple occasions questioned why Sinwar and Haniyeh have yet to be dealt with.

Also, I don’t seek for Israel not to exist as a nation state, nor do I support armed conflict threatening civilians in any scenario, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or of any other culture or faith.

Now that we have that out of the way, why has Zionism evolved into such a dark stain on humanity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s amazing how fast the hour of cards that is Israel is falling. People are now seeing that this murderous regime has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with racist ethno-centric thuggery.

My Jewish grandmother is saying things that I never thought is hear her say. Wondering aloud whether Israel has been a big mistake for Jews. (Not that the impact on Jews is more significant than the horrific damage Israel is doing to Palestinians).

Stop calling your Grandmother Jewish, if what you are saying is true, she is not Jewish, and claiming otherwise is absolutely disgusting. Like the Jews that happily helped Hitler execute his evil plans. It sits in the face of actual Jewish people who would never dare question Israel’s humanitarian mission.

https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-771479

You are a delusional, fairytale peddling, white supremacist weirdo. You support an apartheid state that has been inflicting terrorism on the indigenous people of the land it sits on for decades. One with a military that is comprised of keystone kops who apparently cannot hit the broad side of a barn on their best day, even with the U.S. outfitting them with bleeding edge weapons systems and training. You cry incessantly about existential threats despite the fact that the U.S. already provides your beloved Israel with an insurmountable military advantage over every other state in the region, even in the event that they happened to joined forces.

You applaud the U.S. catering to Israel's interests above all others, and you see nothing wrong with it being on welfare queen mode for over 50 years now. You don't give a rip about compromising the safety of Americans by trying to inextricably link us to Israel's malignant actions in the Middle East, which has resulted in seething resentment from MANY nations. You've made us a laughingstock on the world stage, blocking U.N. resolutions that 100+ other nations have supported. You dehumanize the people you and the Zionist movement have displaced and terrorized for the past 100+ years, constantly complaining when they try to fight back from time to time. And you think you're better and smarter than everyone else, too.

In fact, you think you're part of some mythical "Chosen People" who get to tell others what they really think, and who get to tear words like "anti-semitism" to tatters by misusing those very words in every third sentence to escape your lips. Actual anti-semitism is lost in the haystack of accusations. But more than anything else, you're really you're just a weak, feeble stooge descended from Kyiv or Poznań who irritates just about everyone unfortunate enough to cross your path.

Take a hike, clown.

And you support Hamas and hope for the day that they succeed in their genocidal rage against us Jewish people. You dismiss the holy text you claim to revere, and refuse us our place in the holy land. You wish for America to disgrace their strongest ally to join in alliance with the terrorist group Hamas because the fire of your anti-semitism burns so brightly and deeply within your heart.

Your loyalty is so far from Israel that you may never be considered Jewish again, nor shall your hateful grandmother, and in anger over this reality you lash out against those who love, trust, and support our ancestral home because you very much can see the new holocaust brewing both here and abroad, dreamed up by tiny men and women such as Joe Biden and Rashida Tlaib. Perhaps once Israel saves you from the new concentration camps, after their liberation of the United States, you can find the peace of Judaism again.

Plot twist

You’re confusing posters, and both of them are opposed to Hamas and any acts undertaken by Hamas (or any other person or entity) to harm innocent, non-combatant civilians.

Not sure what more you need to be convinced, but at least this poster is 100% supportive of dismantling Hamas, destroying its capacity to reconstitute, and holding all parties involved in the 10/7 attacks fully accountable for what they did during those attacks. I have also on multiple occasions questioned why Sinwar and Haniyeh have yet to be dealt with.

Also, I don’t seek for Israel not to exist as a nation state, nor do I support armed conflict threatening civilians in any scenario, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or of any other culture or faith.

Now that we have that out of the way, why has Zionism evolved into such a dark stain on humanity?

Two reasons:

1. Anti-semitism
2. Israel's virulent right wing government

Those two phenomenons are hard to get around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

If they win? Probably yes.

+1

People confuse perception with reality.

Reality is that Israel is absolutely winning militarily.

[Anonymous]

Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Lol fix news! Same people who think neo Nazis are great! You keep good company

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Lol fix news! Same people who think neo Nazis are great! You keep good company

I also read The Nation, Guardian, Atlantic, Economist, WaPo, NYT and a variety of local and regional publications.

You? Or does TikTok take up all your time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IDF may win the war against Hamas but their reputation is in tatters. Is it worth it? I’m not sure

Israel’s reputation IS in tatters, and they have guaranteed through their own military strategy (short-sighted and disproportionate) that there will be more generations of anti-Israeli militants to come. So stupid.

However... If they completely destroy Hamas that will send a pretty strong and powerful message to potential anti-Israeli militants about what awaits them if they choose to follow in Hamas's suicidal footsteps.