Do you there can be a 2 state solution in the Middle East?

[Anonymous]

The thread I started on solutions got locked I assume because it went off the rails. I really want to see more discussion of solutions rather all the rhetoric on both sides. So please humor me...do you think a 2 state solution can happen? I know it has been on the table before and has been rejected. If you think it can happen, how do you think we get from this mess to that? If you don't think it can happen, then how do you envision things?

[Anonymous]

I think it can happen and that it is the only way out of the current situation.

To get there we need this invasion wrapped up quickly so Israel can have elections.

[Anonymous]

When India and Pakistan were formed 15 million people moved willingly or mostly were forced to move so that Muslims ended up in Pakistan and Hindus in India.

I think that would be the only way to have a two state solution- forced upheaval and migration. I don't know how they would agree on which areas but when I look on a map I don't understand why to the north of the West Bank the land wasn't given to Palestinians so that they had a border with Lebanon. Or land adjoining Lebanon with it curving around to join the West Bank so there is Mediterranean Sea access.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I believe that there can be a 2-state solution, but it will require the two states to be entirely separate, not one circumscribed by the other.

You need something like everything north of the current West Bank is Palestine. And everything from the Northern edge of the West Bank south is Israel. Both states need to have access to the Mediterranean and Israel's borders need to be convex with no indentations. Right now, Israel's border is too difficult to maintain. The West Bank almost bisects Israel and makes it so much harder to defend. The Gaza Strip then sandwiches the middle vulnerable part of Israel. Israel needs better borders that are easier to defend.

[Anonymous]

Not anytime soon.

Too many Palestinians want vengeance rather than peace, and too many right wing Israelis have a manifest destiny view of the land.

We’ll see what happens after Hamas gets defeated and Bibi gets voted out of office, but I’m not hopeful.

[Anonymous]

The partition with India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is not a wonderful example. Millions died. It was a disaster,

Obviously there needs to be a two state solution for Israel-Palestine. The problem is that Palestinians never have leaders that can close a deal. Not Arafat and the PLO. Not Fatah - deeply corrupt. And certainly not Hamas, which calls for the obliteration of Israel. Their invasion of Israel may have made any kind of agreement impossible. It was a deeply stupid thing to do if you care about a Palestinian state.

Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt are not giving up lands for the Palestinians. So it has to be Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza is no problem. Israel has been out of there since 2005. Egypt doesn't want it. Whatever they're fighting for, it's not because other people want Gaza.

The West Bank is more complicated. There are about 500,000 Israeli settlers there now. Mostly extremist. Mostly ultra-orthodox. And they all need to go for there to be genuine peace.

But with Hamas' invasion of Israel and the atrocities they committed, that's certainly not happening. It strengthens the right wing. Absolutely everyone in Israel is devastated by that attack. There's no room for some kind of universal compromise. And of course after a month of war in Gaza, Palestinians are not going to feel inclined to compromise either.

It's a mess. No easy solutions. Hamas did what it did. They knew very well how Israel would reposed, and that it would make "peace" impossible for years. But ultimately - two states, settlers gone, some complicated security guarantees that no one in Palestine will like, map that looks roughly like the Oslo Accords.

And none of that is happening for a good long while.

[Anonymous]

First this is a long way off as a PP mentioned.

I am wondering whether the only realistic two state solution at this point is resettling the illegal West Bank settlers into Gaza and let Israel rebuild Gaza legally. Israel says it plans on occupying Gaza anyway.

Resettle Palestinians from Gaza in West Bank, which is renamed Palestine.

Then Work hard on building diplomatic relations between Israel and Palestine and normalizing relations between both of them and neighboring Arab countries.
.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The partition with India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is not a wonderful example. Millions died. It was a disaster,

Obviously there needs to be a two state solution for Israel-Palestine. The problem is that Palestinians never have leaders that can close a deal. Not Arafat and the PLO. Not Fatah - deeply corrupt. And certainly not Hamas, which calls for the obliteration of Israel. Their invasion of Israel may have made any kind of agreement impossible. It was a deeply stupid thing to do if you care about a Palestinian state.

Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt are not giving up lands for the Palestinians. So it has to be Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza is no problem. Israel has been out of there since 2005. Egypt doesn't want it. Whatever they're fighting for, it's not because other people want Gaza.

The West Bank is more complicated. There are about 500,000 Israeli settlers there now. Mostly extremist. Mostly ultra-orthodox. And they all need to go for there to be genuine peace.

But with Hamas' invasion of Israel and the atrocities they committed, that's certainly not happening. It strengthens the right wing. Absolutely everyone in Israel is devastated by that attack. There's no room for some kind of universal compromise. And of course after a month of war in Gaza, Palestinians are not going to feel inclined to compromise either.

It's a mess. No easy solutions. Hamas did what it did. They knew very well how Israel would reposed, and that it would make "peace" impossible for years. But ultimately - two states, settlers gone, some complicated security guarantees that no one in Palestine will like, map that looks roughly like the Oslo Accords.

And none of that is happening for a good long while.

I agree that india partition is not a good example. India patition was a replacement and not displacement. They were all indiginous people that essentially exchanged real eastate.

I think the people that have power think like this pp. It's all about Hamas invasion and bad palestian leadership. Nothing about the daily palestinian humiliation, bad Israel leadership, or how the extremist settlers got there is the first place. You will know the solution to this conflict is near when people assign equal blame to both sides. We saw this happened during the waning days of South African apartheid.

[Anonymous]

you guys are also forgetting that India and Pakistan fought wars and still have an unstable border in the north. Both countries waste resources on massive militaries- especially Pakistan- economically, Partition was a smashing success for the west, and a disaster for the Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

the purpose of Indian Partition was to smash the jewel of Britain's empire so it couldn't stand against western economies. It was a divide and conquer strategy- they actually started creating more sectarian tension and violence once the Quit India movement gained steam b/c the English had no intention of allowing India to stay as a whole economic force in the world- the west needed the Punjab and Bengal to be in a disarray with displaced, traumatized people and the Sikhs constantly angry b/c they were the biggest victims of Partition and the most capable of competing economically with the west along with the Bengalis in Calcutta . The universities were gutted for a long while- didnt get rebuilt until the 60's in all 3 countries, the war between east and west Pakistan was inevitable- Mountbatten wanted there to be massive slaughter and death and displacement and refugees who's education, wealth expertise and business were completely destroyed otherwise the battered British economy would be in a terrible place if a whole and united India suddenly was free to run its juggernaut economy and no Partition meant that all of the stolen and looted items would be returned as well. The only reason that India was given independence at all was b/c Indians held massive amounts of British debt from the war and they essentially exchange that money for freedom, leading to more lost economic prosperity for Indians.

Turkey and Greece also had a population/land swap- that is a better analogy since the greeks wanted a total annexation of turkey, displacement of all muslims and all of the land and even remain in Turkey as a small minority to this day to 'stake their claim'.

[Anonymous]

It’s amazing they both fight over the only piece of real estate without any oil in the ME

[Anonymous]

No, there is no 'two state solution' available.

Something that is not discussed enough is that the Israelis themselves do not want this - and in fact mainstream Israeli politicians are clear about this.

A frustration of mine is that American politicians are obligated to promote a 'two state solution' when that is not on the cards anytime ever in Israel.

[Anonymous]

Palestinians historically reject two state solutions. They had the chance in 1947, 2000, and 2008 and turned it down each time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, there is no 'two state solution' available.

Something that is not discussed enough is that the Israelis themselves do not want this - and in fact mainstream Israeli politicians are clear about this.

A frustration of mine is that American politicians are obligated to promote a 'two state solution' when that is not on the cards anytime ever in Israel.

Only true for the last 20 years or so with Bibi and Lukid in power. Before that, Israel was certainly trying. We'll see what happens as the new generation grows up.

Anyone saying Israel never wanted a 'two state solution' is probably justifying a one state solution as an only answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First this is a long way off as a PP mentioned.

I am wondering whether the only realistic two state solution at this point is resettling the illegal West Bank settlers into Gaza and let Israel rebuild Gaza legally. Israel says it plans on occupying Gaza anyway.

Resettle Palestinians from Gaza in West Bank, which is renamed Palestine.

Then Work hard on building diplomatic relations between Israel and Palestine and normalizing relations between both of them and neighboring Arab countries.
.

The West Bank settlers seem to be much more extreme than regular Israelis - the. Shot it of whom do not appear to approve of their aggressive advances in West Bank and extreme views.

Would resettling the West Bank settlers in Gaza and returning West Bank to Palestinians be possible if there was a special referendum on the issue? Israelis are proud of their democracy.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:First this is a long way off as a PP mentioned.

I am wondering whether the only realistic two state solution at this point is resettling the illegal West Bank settlers into Gaza and let Israel rebuild Gaza legally. Israel says it plans on occupying Gaza anyway.

Resettle Palestinians from Gaza in West Bank, which is renamed Palestine.

Then Work hard on building diplomatic relations between Israel and Palestine and normalizing relations between both of them and neighboring Arab countries.
.

The Israelis have no real interest in Gaza. But, the West Bank is full of Jewish holy sites. That's one reason for the settlements. There is no way to dislodge the settlers short of using force because many of them consider it their religious duty to live there. This is one reason that the chances of a two-state solution are so dismal.