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Political Discussion
Gaza War, Part 3
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Anonymous
I don’t think that at all. But if Hamas is just going to regroup and do another 10/7, what is Israel supposed to do? |
Anonymous
Why is it so hard to stop a bunch of fat slobs on motorcycles? |
Anonymous
Iron Dome allowed fat slobs in hang gliders to just float into Israeli airspace? |
Anonymous
Thank you for making my point. |
Anonymous
Here is my summation of how we got here. Please chime n with where I got things wrong: 1000s of years ago people living in Judea/Palestine. Nomadic. Worshipping multiple Gods. It was decided that was bad and they began worshipping one GoD > Judaism was born. Then Christianity. Then Islam. Kind of fuzzy about why Jewish tribes left - likely kicked out by Romans? Or Arabs? Or both? 100 years ago: Palestinians living fairly happily in former Judea/Palestine (although many were not land owners due to Ottoman Empire and likely persecuted and maybe not nice to any non Muslim minority also living in region. Early 1900s: Zionists arrive. They were not treated well in Europe and want to return to “homeland”. They buy land (legally!) from absentee landlords. They kick out tenants (ie Palestinians). Palestinians figure out they are getting push out systematically. They get angry. Attack Jews. Jews get mad. Jews joined by Holocaust survivors who are madder. 1948: post WWIiI, the World feel terrible for allowing the Holocaust. Esp US and Britain (who do not let Jewish refugees into their own countries). Ideas proposed for Jewish homeland including Africa. Jews prefer ancient homeland from 1900 years previously. Something. Something about second Temple? Or Third? Then, U.N. and 181. Palestinians not happy land they have lived in for generations are now a Jewish homeland. They attack Jews. 1948-1967: Jews upset drive remaining Palestinians off land committing horrible acts of rape and child killing / maiming. Jews bury evidence and start fantastic PR campaign that they arrived in a land without people. Destiny! Palestinians fight back and joined by Egypt and Jordan (Jordan wants Palestinian land for Transjordan). They lose. Jews win. Israel = 1967 borders. 1967-2023: endless terrorist attacks by Palestinians. Palestinian cause used to recruit 911 terrorists. Israel upset and push past 1967 borders and start settlements. Israel angry at terrorist attacks. Think Palestine should get over it. Enter peace talks. Blame Palestinians for not being ok with 1967 borders. Rubin killed. More terrorist attacks. Life for Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza not great bc of Israel blockades and they lack a country. 2/3 report feeling food insecure and living under stress just prior to 10/7. 10/7/2023: horrible attack by Hamas. 10/9? Or a few days late: Israel launches attack killing2800% times the numbers killed 10/7, injuring tens of thousands, displacing 100s of thousands. Starving millions. Where do we go from here? I think the key is establishing a narrative of how we got here. I’m not sure both sides will ever agree…. |
Anonymous
Romans killed Jews and destroyed the temple. When the Arabs (Saladin?) took Jerusalem centuries later , Jews were allowed back. Not many came back. When Egypt and Persia became Islamic , is when Jews had easier times than when they were pagan. This started changing in 1900s but the immigration was very fast and rapid and the Brits formed the Balfour Declaration without consulting Palestinians stating the land is for Jews. Romans became Christian not long after burning the temple and genociding Jews and they were still very anti Semitic . The word ghetto is an Italian word for Jewish neighborhoods. For whatever reason, despite all the wealth Jews had, they never fought Europeans who killed and tortured them for centuries . |
Anonymous
| There was no reason for Jews and Muslims to become mortal enemies when historically they got along better and religion wise they are the closest faiths (although Islam is rapture crazy like evangelical Christianity ) |
Anonymous
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And as for Palestinians, I would say that none of them even know the Quran or Sunnah because it plainly says Israel will become a state again just like the Bible does. It is a prediction ( a Rapture prediction ) nonetheless but if they really read the Quran , the Palestinians would have accepted the 1948 partition because Islam and Christianity both have prophecies saying so.
In addition, Prophet Muhammad said to be kind to immigrants and the Constitution of Medina drafter by him said Jews and Muslims must live in peace together and stop bickering and it was one of the first multi faith/religious freedom constitutions centuries before Europe. More liberal than current Saudi Arabia’s rules in fact and Europe at this era was still led with an iron fist by the Pope and changing religion was not allowed. I can almost guarantee nobody in Hamas has even read or heard of such a Constitution |
Anonymous
I think the bolded is quite the understatement. I think at the root of the problem is that enough Israelis think that Palestinian lives don't matter and their rights don't matter. I don't think all Israelis feel that way, but certainly enough of them do. 14 year old Omar Awadin was killed in a raid by Israeli police in Jenin in March 2023. It was a Thursday afternoon and Omar was on his bike making deliveries for his dad's shop. Four plainclothes security officers targeted two unarmed suspects walking down the street and opened fire, killing the boy. Washington post investigated the incident and found "16 civilians in the area as the officers charged down the street with AR-style rifles and a handgun, firing more than 20 shots". "In response to initial questions about Omar, Israeli police said in an email to The Post that “the subject of your inquiry took an active part in the violent riot while endangering the lives of the troops.” It’s unclear what riot they were referring to, but the visual evidence reviewed by The Post showed no such riot before the shootings took place. The police declined to review The Post’s evidence or to respond to follow-up questions." So in summation, they fired over 20 shots at unarmed suspects on a street in Jenin in the middle of the day, even though there were kids and other civilians on the street. Then lied about the boys death by accusing him of endangering Israeli troops. It is pretty clear that they don't care if they kill those civilians and that their lives don't matter. There is no justice for the Palestinians. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestinians-raids-west-bank/ |
Anonymous
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I posted a link up thread to a video of a journalist talking to a former Palestinian politician and writer for an hour. The summary is that the Palestinians just need to move on and accept Israel. The challenge that the video didn’t address is the conditions that Palestinian live under and how this results in anger and stress that produces Hamas. Maybe the Israelis just don’t see this?
I agree Palestinians need to accept they are not moving back to their ancestral homes and Israel is a country. But israelis need to acknowledge that they’ve harmed the Palestinian so that they make changes to stop doing so. |
Anonymous
That's a good point. But I'm not sure how that happens. According to Reuters, more than 70 percent of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas, and specifically, the atrocities committed on 10/7. Fatah is only supported by a little more than 10 percent of Palestinians. The entire purpose of Hamas, of course, is to bring about the annihilation of Israel. And obviously, since the Hamas invasion of Israel and Israel's subsequent response, attitudes have only hardened. It seems a little hopeless. At least in Israel, there will eventually be elections and Netanyahu and Likud will be removed from power and new leaders will emerge. But the political realities for Palestinians remain bleak. They tried democracy once in 2005 and elected Hamas. Since then, nothing but rage and corruption. I don't see that changing. And cynical Israelis will always point to that and say, see, Palestinians can't be trusted with their own state. And they are not entirely wrong. |
Anonymous
Israel continues to de-home Palestinians and encroach on their territory. Because Palestinian lives just don't matter to them. Why should they accept that? |
Anonymous
Well on the other hand, Israeli lives matter so much to Palestinians because their families receive a bounty for each Jew they kill. Even the Palestinian Authority, not only Hamas, maintains this "pay for slay" policy. https://www.wsj.com/articles/palestinian-pay-for-slay-hamas-oct-7-israel-gaza-antony-blinken-ramallah-2dce9a22 "Palestinian ‘Pay for Slay’ Keeps Growing Blinken touts reform while the PA adds more terrorists to the payroll." |
Anonymous
Some Palestinians are Christian. I imagine most of them left and are the ones we see in America, etc. At least the ones I know . |
Anonymous
It's a self-perpetuating cycle at this point. Palestinians and Israelis view each other as a threat, Palestinians have repeatedly attacked Israelis, and vice versa, so Israel keeps them at arms length and treats them with suspicion and oppression. Palestinians in turn turn to hostility and violence. Rinse, repeat et cetera. At some point that cycle needs to get broken. |