TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

They dropped the test - because it had been compromised. They did not punish students, because that would have been wrong. They cannot punish the prep center because that's not what school districts do. So they dropped the test. You are free to continue with your strong denial, there's no need to prove anything. The test will not be coming back. Now they are using essay questions, which have their own pros and cons.

They dropped the test because since the beginning of testing for TJ, URMs could never keep up with non-URMs.

This is well documented across academia and isn’t specific to TJ.

There is still a test, btw. It's not a lottery or any other strange admissions process that posters complain about. There are essay questions including a math/science essay question that, based on the feedback on this site immediately after the test, is challenging to answer correctly, with full explanation, within the time limit.

Right and they give URMs bonus points in the scoring. Otherwise they may not get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

TJ semifinalist pool was always gatekept behind test scores in some way. This didn't start with the class of 2022.
For the class of 2022, in order to qualify for the pool you had to be at least at the 50th national percentile in math and at least 75th national percentile in reading and science AND you had to have a 75% in math or 90% science. So if you are at the 74th national percentile in reading, you didn't get into the pool. You don't need expensive boutique enrichment for that. The average pool candidate had 82% math, 92% reading and 95% science. The average admit that year had 88% math, 94% reading, and 96% science.

And once again, if wealth could get you into TJ, then TJ would be a lot whiter than it is.

Also, in what way is setting a reading test score cutoff unfair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

How do you explain the racial disparity BEFORE they started using quant Q?

It's such a well kept secret that it's available on amazon.com. https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X
If your business model relies on 3000 8th graders keeping a secret then your business model sucks.

This has got nothing to do with the integrity of 12 year olds and everything to do with your racism.

This is true. FCPS has been evaluating ways to improve racial disparity at TJ for 30 years. From illegal quotas to holistic reviews to elementary enrichment programs… well before the quant-q ever came around. URMs have always struggled to perform as well as their non-URM peers in testing. Pretending cheating is the problem is a good excuse to remove this deficiency and achieve this decades long goal of diverse representation.

and I think it’s a good thing to want that diverse representation, but these kids aren’t taking linear algebra most likely or scoring 1500 on the sat, so no pointing pretending they are.

I mean - and this is a serious question - who cares?

Why does the definition of a TJ student have to be so narrow? It has never been the case that the majority of TJ students take Linear Algebra and it was never going to be.

The majority of TJ students take post calculus math. A lot of these kids are on track to take calculus their senior year. And that's fine, but they are going to struggle academically all the way up till then unless TJ lowers standards and rigor. TJ's median SAT score has been above 1500 since they went back to a 1600 point scale. This will no longer be true from the class of 2025 onward, the median student just isn't as smart and that's a shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

They dropped the test - because it had been compromised. They did not punish students, because that would have been wrong. They cannot punish the prep center because that's not what school districts do. So they dropped the test. You are free to continue with your strong denial, there's no need to prove anything. The test will not be coming back. Now they are using essay questions, which have their own pros and cons.

They dropped the test because since the beginning of testing for TJ, URMs could never keep up with non-URMs.

This is well documented across academia and isn’t specific to TJ.

There is still a test, btw. It's not a lottery or any other strange admissions process that posters complain about. There are essay questions including a math/science essay question that, based on the feedback on this site immediately after the test, is challenging to answer correctly, with full explanation, within the time limit.

That's not entirely true. The math/science essay has pretty trivial math and science content. It's not going to differentiate between a kid who is brilliant at math and one who is average at math, but it will differentiate between which one is a better or worse writer. The remaining essays are complete fluff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

Look earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

They dropped the test - because it had been compromised. They did not punish students, because that would have been wrong. They cannot punish the prep center because that's not what school districts do. So they dropped the test. You are free to continue with your strong denial, there's no need to prove anything. The test will not be coming back. Now they are using essay questions, which have their own pros and cons.

They dropped the test because since the beginning of testing for TJ, URMs could never keep up with non-URMs.

This is well documented across academia and isn’t specific to TJ.

There is still a test, btw. It's not a lottery or any other strange admissions process that posters complain about. There are essay questions including a math/science essay question that, based on the feedback on this site immediately after the test, is challenging to answer correctly, with full explanation, within the time limit.

I agree it is challenging to finish the essay questions in time and requires a good amount of verbal ability to write coherently but the one single math question is not even a little bit difficult. I think last year's was one of those "a train leave chicago at 1pm going at 60mph" type of questions. If we wanted to create a magnet SLAC high school, this would be a really good way of selecting students. But we are picking a basketball team based on batting averages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

DP. The existence of a few dorks (who may be false flag operators, for all I know) insisting on the "test buying" narrative doesn't discount from the fact that the Quant-Q was compromised by what happened at Curie. You're welcome to not believe that what happened happened, but that doesn't change whether or not it happened and the fact that it highlighted the weakness of using standardized exams as a gatekeeper for the TJ admissions process.

For the record, I believe that there is a way to use standardized exams as part of a genuinely holistic admissions process - it just doesn't work as part of a rubric or formula and it's too easy for bad actors to misuse the data that comes from them to argue for the existence of racism in selection processes.

Quant Q was compromised because it was it was inevitable that three THOUSAND 12 year olds couldn't all keep a secret.
If the efficacy of your test depends on the element of surprise then it is not a good test, it is probably not even a fair test.
Curie wasn't the only place that knew the types of questions and the format before the second administration of quant Q.
There were literally book available on amazon.
It was when this was pointed out that I noticed the "dorks" talking about test buying and curie students getting the questions in advance.

Standardized tests are a better predictor of college performance at selective and highly selective colleges than any other indicator. I don't think anything else even comes close.
There is a study from chicago that points out that students with a 3.75 gpa graduate at much higher rates than students with a 1.5 gpa from mostly non-selective colleges but that's not what we're talking about here. But this does not apply to selective schools. Harvard and recently published a study showing that st ivy+ schools, standardized test scores are
They are equally predictive regardless of race, wealth, gender, geographic origin.
Standardized tests are used around the world as the sole (or primary) determinant of who goes to which college.

Why do you seem so confident that holistic admissions are better than standardized tests?
Holistic admissions were created to keep jews out of harvard and then it developed a life of its own as admissions committees tried to justify their own existence.
And we saw in the harvard case that there was in fact racial discrimination in the admissions process, I mean these were large racial preferences, like a standard deviation and more.
These days the primary benefit of "holistic admissions" seems to be its ability to identify wealthy students that can become part of the donor base and the ability to select "preferred students without accountability.
In countries with publicly funded higher education, we see standardized tests being used a lot.
Are they all doing it wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

Look earlier.

People need to be careful about comparing SOL rates, AP scores, etc. from year to year without also looking at the scores of other schools or the district as a whole. The SOL has had numerous re-writes and re-normings, such that you can't compare rates from 2012 with rates from 2023. TJ had nearly 99% pass advanced until 2012. From 2012-2019, the scores dropped significantly. Then, they rose again dramatically in 2021. McLean high shows the exact same trend. Fairfax county as a whole also shows this trend. This is much more indicative that the test scoring was changed pretty significantly in 2012 and then again in 2021.

[Anonymous]

That’s a big drop. All the FCPS schools are crap now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

The big difference following 9th & 10th grade admission changes is that seven TJ students failed their English SOL in 2022-23. Prior to 2021, there were no English SOL failures. The SOL is a test of minimum grade level competency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That’s a big drop. All the FCPS schools are crap now.

The goal of fcps is equity in shitty, so it's fair

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

WRONG - in this very thread there are pages and pages of testimony and links to multiple stories.

Pages and pages of testimony and not a single link?

NO - there were dozens of links posted in this thread even. You must not be looking very hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

It's so sad that test scores dropped because of the pandemic, but things will get better in a couple of years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That’s a big drop. All the FCPS schools are crap now.

Yes, remote learning took it's toll, but students should recover in a decade or two.