TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

How do you explain the racial disparity BEFORE they started using quant Q?

It's such a well kept secret that it's available on amazon.com. https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X
If your business model relies on 3000 8th graders keeping a secret then your business model sucks.

This has got nothing to do with the integrity of 12 year olds and everything to do with your racism.

This is true. FCPS has been evaluating ways to improve racial disparity at TJ for 30 years. From illegal quotas to holistic reviews to elementary enrichment programs… well before the quant-q ever came around. URMs have always struggled to perform as well as their non-URM peers in testing. Pretending cheating is the problem is a good excuse to remove this deficiency and achieve this decades long goal of diverse representation.

and I think it’s a good thing to want that diverse representation, but these kids aren’t taking linear algebra most likely or scoring 1500 on the sat, so no pointing pretending they are.

I mean - and this is a serious question - who cares?

Why does the definition of a TJ student have to be so narrow? It has never been the case that the majority of TJ students take Linear Algebra and it was never going to be.

The majority of TJ students take post calculus math. A lot of these kids are on track to take calculus their senior year. And that's fine, but they are going to struggle academically all the way up till then unless TJ lowers standards and rigor. TJ's median SAT score has been above 1500 since they went back to a 1600 point scale. This will no longer be true from the class of 2025 onward, the median student just isn't as smart and that's a shame.

The facts indicate otherwise. You need to stop with the gaslighting. The students selected over the less successful preppers are in most cases more intelligent and capable and seem to be doing better than ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

How do you explain the racial disparity BEFORE they started using quant Q?

It's such a well kept secret that it's available on amazon.com. https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X
If your business model relies on 3000 8th graders keeping a secret then your business model sucks.

This has got nothing to do with the integrity of 12 year olds and everything to do with your racism.

You keep posting links to these abysmal so-called "test prep" books. This one is as bad as the last one.

Do you look at these links? Pathetic scamsters making a buck off of gullible parents. SMH

I doubt the kids who used these did anywhere near as well as those who had access to the Cuire question bank.

+1

Test prep provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids, particularly those who had access to previous questions to a test that did not have public prep materials available.

TJ is a resource for the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

If wealth drove TJ admissions, there would be a lot more white kids at TJ.

Actually TJ admissions are driven by interest. 18% of white applicants get in just as 19% of Asians applicants get in just as 21% of the hispanic applicants who apply get in... The reason that TJ is 60% Asian is that roughly 60% of the applicants are Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

They dropped the test - because it had been compromised. They did not punish students, because that would have been wrong. They cannot punish the prep center because that's not what school districts do. So they dropped the test. You are free to continue with your strong denial, there's no need to prove anything. The test will not be coming back. Now they are using essay questions, which have their own pros and cons.

They dropped the test because since the beginning of testing for TJ, URMs could never keep up with non-URMs.

This is well documented across academia and isn’t specific to TJ.

There is still a test, btw. It's not a lottery or any other strange admissions process that posters complain about. There are essay questions including a math/science essay question that, based on the feedback on this site immediately after the test, is challenging to answer correctly, with full explanation, within the time limit.

Right and they give URMs bonus points in the scoring. Otherwise they may not get in.

Pro-standardized testing poster here.
URM do not get bonus points.
Poor kids get bonus points.
Kids with disadvantages like being disabled, etc. get bonus points but they don't give bonus points to kids based on skin color.
What they do is provide a quota to each middle school, so every middle school sends at least 1.5% of its graduating students to TJ.

This led to black admissions going from less than 10 to 19, hispanic admissions going from 23 to 41, and white admissions going from 86 to 140 (fairfax is a predominantly white county).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

Look earlier.

I see that TJ english advance pass rates went from 59 to 100 between 2019 and 2021, I don't know what happened to SOL tests during the pandemic but I do know that the admissions process that selected the students at TJ didn't change in this period so a sudden increase from 59 to 100 could not be the result of a change in the admissions process.

So I think the 2021 to 2022 years are the correct years to compare. Why do you think that it makes sense to use data that would not be affected by the admissions change, unless you think we should keep changing the goalposts until you find a data set that supports your theory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

DP. The existence of a few dorks (who may be false flag operators, for all I know) insisting on the "test buying" narrative doesn't discount from the fact that the Quant-Q was compromised by what happened at Curie. You're welcome to not believe that what happened happened, but that doesn't change whether or not it happened and the fact that it highlighted the weakness of using standardized exams as a gatekeeper for the TJ admissions process.

For the record, I believe that there is a way to use standardized exams as part of a genuinely holistic admissions process - it just doesn't work as part of a rubric or formula and it's too easy for bad actors to misuse the data that comes from them to argue for the existence of racism in selection processes.

emphasis added

These are not bad actors, they just want things you do not (an admissions process without racial preferences).
These are people pointing out racial discrimination and using data to prove it.
You are arguing that we shouldn't collect the data to take away the means of proving the racial discrimination.

Do you honestly think there were no (or minimal) racial preferences in the college admissions process?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

DP. The existence of a few dorks (who may be false flag operators, for all I know) insisting on the "test buying" narrative doesn't discount from the fact that the Quant-Q was compromised by what happened at Curie. You're welcome to not believe that what happened happened, but that doesn't change whether or not it happened and the fact that it highlighted the weakness of using standardized exams as a gatekeeper for the TJ admissions process.

For the record, I believe that there is a way to use standardized exams as part of a genuinely holistic admissions process - it just doesn't work as part of a rubric or formula and it's too easy for bad actors to misuse the data that comes from them to argue for the existence of racism in selection processes.

emphasis added

These are not bad actors, they just want things you do not (an admissions process without racial preferences).
These are people pointing out racial discrimination and using data to prove it.
You are arguing that we shouldn't collect the data to take away the means of proving the racial discrimination.

Do you honestly think there were no (or minimal) racial preferences in the college admissions process?

They have proven no such thing. The process is race blind. Even the Supreme Court felt the C4TJ case alleging racial bias had no merit and declined to hear it. Further, the largest beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians to a program that is still majority Asian. These claims are without merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

WRONG - in this very thread there are pages and pages of testimony and links to multiple stories.

Pages and pages of testimony and not a single link?

NO - there were dozens of links posted in this thread even. You must not be looking very hard.

I've bookmarked the links that you guys pretend don't exist so they're easy to access because you keep asking for the same information over and over again.
This is one I've had to link a dozen times or so.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

You purport pages and pages of evidence exist and not a single link.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s a big drop. All the FCPS schools are crap now.

Yes, remote learning took it's toll, but students should recover in a decade or two.

So why did it only seem to take a toll on TJ students between 2021 and 2022 and everyone else in FCPS was on the road to recovery between those two years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

How do you explain the racial disparity BEFORE they started using quant Q?

It's such a well kept secret that it's available on amazon.com. https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X
If your business model relies on 3000 8th graders keeping a secret then your business model sucks.

This has got nothing to do with the integrity of 12 year olds and everything to do with your racism.

This is true. FCPS has been evaluating ways to improve racial disparity at TJ for 30 years. From illegal quotas to holistic reviews to elementary enrichment programs… well before the quant-q ever came around. URMs have always struggled to perform as well as their non-URM peers in testing. Pretending cheating is the problem is a good excuse to remove this deficiency and achieve this decades long goal of diverse representation.

and I think it’s a good thing to want that diverse representation, but these kids aren’t taking linear algebra most likely or scoring 1500 on the sat, so no pointing pretending they are.

I mean - and this is a serious question - who cares?

Why does the definition of a TJ student have to be so narrow? It has never been the case that the majority of TJ students take Linear Algebra and it was never going to be.

The majority of TJ students take post calculus math. A lot of these kids are on track to take calculus their senior year. And that's fine, but they are going to struggle academically all the way up till then unless TJ lowers standards and rigor. TJ's median SAT score has been above 1500 since they went back to a 1600 point scale. This will no longer be true from the class of 2025 onward, the median student just isn't as smart and that's a shame.

The facts indicate otherwise. You need to stop with the gaslighting. The students selected over the less successful preppers are in most cases more intelligent and capable and seem to be doing better than ever.

I don't know if they are capable of doing better but they are not actually doing better.
The PSAT scorers are down,
The SOL advance pass rates are down,
The math department sent an email to the math 4 students telling them they lowered standards and the students still had the worst results ever seen at TJ,
The top math olympiad participants are no longer overwhelmingly at TJ,

I think we will probably see lower SAT scores and worse college admissions results.
But the practical effect is that either:
A) a lot of bright kids who never got the academic training to deal with a place like TJ will drown freom trying to drink from that firehose and become academically discouraged; or
B) they will lower standards and rigor to accomodate those less academically advanced kids and a lot of bright kids that needed the academic rigor that Tj used to provide will no longer get it.

Right now it looks like the administration is trying to run a 2 tier system running an academically rigorous program for the top 30-40% of the school and the equivalent of a high school level AAP center for the rest of the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

DP. The existence of a few dorks (who may be false flag operators, for all I know) insisting on the "test buying" narrative doesn't discount from the fact that the Quant-Q was compromised by what happened at Curie. You're welcome to not believe that what happened happened, but that doesn't change whether or not it happened and the fact that it highlighted the weakness of using standardized exams as a gatekeeper for the TJ admissions process.

For the record, I believe that there is a way to use standardized exams as part of a genuinely holistic admissions process - it just doesn't work as part of a rubric or formula and it's too easy for bad actors to misuse the data that comes from them to argue for the existence of racism in selection processes.

emphasis added

These are not bad actors, they just want things you do not (an admissions process without racial preferences).
These are people pointing out racial discrimination and using data to prove it.
You are arguing that we shouldn't collect the data to take away the means of proving the racial discrimination.

Do you honestly think there were no (or minimal) racial preferences in the college admissions process?

They have proven no such thing. The process is race blind. Even the Supreme Court felt the C4TJ case alleging racial bias had no merit and declined to hear it. Further, the largest beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians to a program that is still majority Asian. These claims are without merit.

+1


6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



7. ADMISSIONS AND ENROLLMENT DATA BACK IT UP
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students, more than all other groups combined.

The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ by school year (fall):


The data also shows that Asian students were still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students. The acceptance rate for Asian students drives the mean since they comprise such a large % of applicants and acceptances.

Asian 19%
Black 14% (5% lower)
Multiracial/Other* 13% (6% lower)
Hispanic 21%
White 17%



8. LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."



Claims of “discrimination” are laughable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

How do you explain the racial disparity BEFORE they started using quant Q?

It's such a well kept secret that it's available on amazon.com. https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X
If your business model relies on 3000 8th graders keeping a secret then your business model sucks.

This has got nothing to do with the integrity of 12 year olds and everything to do with your racism.

You keep posting links to these abysmal so-called "test prep" books. This one is as bad as the last one.

Do you look at these links? Pathetic scamsters making a buck off of gullible parents. SMH

I doubt the kids who used these did anywhere near as well as those who had access to the Cuire question bank.

+1

Test prep provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids, particularly those who had access to previous questions to a test that did not have public prep materials available.

TJ is a resource for the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

If wealth drove TJ admissions, there would be a lot more white kids at TJ.

Actually TJ admissions are driven by interest. 18% of white applicants get in just as 19% of Asians applicants get in just as 21% of the hispanic applicants who apply get in... The reason that TJ is 60% Asian is that roughly 60% of the applicants are Asian.

That's under the new system which approximates a lottery.
Under the old system asians had higher acceptance rates than whites.
That really pissed off a lot off white supremacists, especially now that so many of those asians were so dark skinned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

New poster. You misunderstand the point completely. The point you are responding to is that tests are the "fairest" way to determine who gets to attend the most rigorous schools -- the very schools that are trying to select the most capable so that material can be taught at a more advanced level. You go on to point out possible flaws with tests, but so what? You're attacking a strawman. No method is perfect; no one claims tests are perfect. You do nothing to suggest that any other metric is "fairer" than tests, with their flaws and all. And if you had a shred of objectivity, I think you would be forced to concede that trying to measure "growth," a "trend," or a kid's "grit or determination" is about as subjective as can be and therefore ripe for the abuse of racial or class balancing or whatever the day's whims are. Tell me all how about how Asians are lacking in "leadership qualities."

And in this particular instance people were buying the test answers which made the test especially useless.

That is an isolated issue that is easy to fix (though overstated, no?). No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Noone bought test answers.
The allegation is that they made 3000 12/13 year olds sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk about the test and some of them talked. In fact, enough of them talked that you can buy books about the test on amazon. Then, apparently, the test maker used the same questions over and over again from year to year. This is all based on some social media posts my 8th graders.

This aversion to testing is liberal white supremacy.
When asians outperform whites it's because they cheat and deserve our disdain, so we can discriminate against them.
When blacks underperform whites it's because they are incapable of doing well on tests, so we should pity them and give them a few seats at the table.
Only white people are both capable and honorable.

This aversion to testing and attraction to holistic admissions didn't arise until asians started crowding out white kids.

You are glossing right over the lack of integrity. In this country, integrity and honor have a particular meaning. In school, integrity is important. Out of school, it is extremely important.

When I see arguments that seek to “other” immigrants, I smell MAGA. What else should I know about “ this country”. Been here 30 years by the way.

We have our American definition of integrity. If it is not universal, then we stick with our definition. You've been here 30 years, so you are aware of the American definition.

Encouraging students to go against what they agreed to do, when they gave their word, merely for the purpose of getting ahead (rather than a more justifiable reason), is not honorable.

I am sorry but allow me to humor you. I suppose this “integrity” allows for gerrymandering, whereby desired outcomes are achieved via legitimate means. So this much hyped integrity that you talk about is very much compromised when needed. So spare me your sermon.

Painting hard-working kids as toxic cheaters is not honorable. Please…

The whole test buying fiasco was a dirty business and you can't simply gloss over it.

If you have any proof that tests were bought, can you please link to a news story or any actual evidence outside of your fevered racist imagination?

No need since that's been posted here already dozens of times. This includes multiple news stories ranging from local media to the student paper and dozens of first hand accounts. This is well established fact. However, attempting to gaslight others about it is reprehensible.

DP. It hasn't been posted here, because it doesn't exist. There were no local media stories posted anywhere. The student paper story was about test prep being beneficial, but had nothing whatsoever to do with the Quant Q and test buying (It was pointed out earlier that the author of the article took TJ prep long before the Quant Q was in use, but you liars will keep using it as proof of something). The only firsthand account posted was an anonymous tj vents post. You're the one gaslighting by continually refusing to provide actual evidence while claiming that it's been posted "dozens of times."

DP. The existence of a few dorks (who may be false flag operators, for all I know) insisting on the "test buying" narrative doesn't discount from the fact that the Quant-Q was compromised by what happened at Curie. You're welcome to not believe that what happened happened, but that doesn't change whether or not it happened and the fact that it highlighted the weakness of using standardized exams as a gatekeeper for the TJ admissions process.

For the record, I believe that there is a way to use standardized exams as part of a genuinely holistic admissions process - it just doesn't work as part of a rubric or formula and it's too easy for bad actors to misuse the data that comes from them to argue for the existence of racism in selection processes.

emphasis added

These are not bad actors, they just want things you do not (an admissions process without racial preferences).
These are people pointing out racial discrimination and using data to prove it.
You are arguing that we shouldn't collect the data to take away the means of proving the racial discrimination.

Do you honestly think there were no (or minimal) racial preferences in the college admissions process?

They have proven no such thing. The process is race blind. Even the Supreme Court felt the C4TJ case alleging racial bias had no merit and declined to hear it. Further, the largest beneficiary of the changes were low-income Asians to a program that is still majority Asian. These claims are without merit.

The conversation has shifted to the harvard case and the reason why the dei crowd don't like objective testing, try to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Claims of “discrimination” are laughable.

The process itself is facially neutral.
Just like literacy tests, poll taxes, and voter ID laws were facially neutral.
It is the intent behind the changes that was racially discriminatory.

But just like the supreme court's decision not to overturn voter ID laws despite the racist intent behind them, they didn't do anything about this facially neutral admissions process either.
You are in good company with the promoters of facially neutral voter ID laws that were passed specifically to suppress black votes in philadelphia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

FWIW, the one clear difference between the pre-admission changes and post-admission changes is the increase in SOL pass advanced scores for English.

WTF are you talking about?

SOL advance pass in English Reading are:
2021:100%
2022:95%
2023:94%

So while English is a subject where we have seen smaller drops, this is not crazy to me. We are selecting for writing and verbal ability with timed essays but NOTHING went up.

We should not be surprised to find out that selecting students based on academic merit leads to better academic results than if we select students based on a largely random process. It would be a bit surprising to find out otherwise.

Look earlier.

I see that TJ english advance pass rates went from 59 to 100 between 2019 and 2021, I don't know what happened to SOL tests during the pandemic but I do know that the admissions process that selected the students at TJ didn't change in this period so a sudden increase from 59 to 100 could not be the result of a change in the admissions process.

So I think the 2021 to 2022 years are the correct years to compare. Why do you think that it makes sense to use data that would not be affected by the admissions change, unless you think we should keep changing the goalposts until you find a data set that supports your theory.

The 2019 and 2021 English SOL scores are from two different SOL versions so they are not comparable. In addition, the score needed to pass (& pass advanced) the English SOL in 2021 was lower than it was in 2019, which inflates 2021 English pass (& pass advanced) rates relative to 2019.

The SOLs are updated every seven years. The current English SOL was revised in 2017 and was implemented in 2019-20. However, there were no SOL exams in spring 2020 due to covid. Thus, the first English SOL exam under the new 2017 standards was 2020-21. As other PPs have noted, you want to compare SOL scores/pass rates within the same SOL version. For current purposes, the best comparison for English is 2020-21, 2021-22, 2022-23, and soon 2023-24 as these are all within the same 2017 SOL version.

However, there was an even bigger factor affecting pass rates for the 2017 English SOL version than just the change in standards; VA's Board of Education significantly reduced the scores needed to pass the 2017 English SOL version (cut scores), which was first seen reflected in the 2020-21 SOL exams. Because the English cut score reduction first took effect in 2020-21 (post covid), it dampened the visible reporting of VA's English covid learning loss. That's why VA's covid learning loss is more apparent in math SOL scores than in English SOL scores.

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Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

Yes, at one time exam scores were a much smaller piece of the discussion. I'm not referring to that.

What I'm referring to is the transition beginning with the Class of 2022 to the process that gatekept the semifinalist pool to those scoring above certain percentile threshholds on the suite of three exams given - the Quant-Q and the ACT-Aspire English and Science exams.

Believe it or not, under this old process, a student could achieve a literal perfect score on the "math" and "science" exams, but if their English score was in the 74th percentile, they would not be considered for admission in the semifinalist pool. Staggering.

When you design an admissions process in this manner, you make it functionally impossible for a brilliant student who for whatever reason doesn't perform quite as well on an exam as peers who have spent years in expensive boutique enrichment courses preparing for those exams to get into TJ.

The above should be common knowledge among people who discuss the TJ admissions process, but evidently based on your comments it is now. I apologize for my assumption.

TJ semifinalist pool was always gatekept behind test scores in some way. This didn't start with the class of 2022.
For the class of 2022, in order to qualify for the pool you had to be at least at the 50th national percentile in math and at least 75th national percentile in reading and science AND you had to have a 75% in math or 90% science. So if you are at the 74th national percentile in reading, you didn't get into the pool. You don't need expensive boutique enrichment for that. The average pool candidate had 82% math, 92% reading and 95% science. The average admit that year had 88% math, 94% reading, and 96% science.

And once again, if wealth could get you into TJ, then TJ would be a lot whiter than it is.

Also, in what way is setting a reading test score cutoff unfair?

A lot to unpack here...

1) We're not talking about absolute scores here - we're talking about percentile scores. Which means that the boutique enrichment services are wrecking the curve and putting those percentile threshholds even further out of reach for some students.

2) You can see the delta between the average pool candidate and the average admit on the Quant-Q. This supports the hypothesis that the scores were indeed used heavily in the process of getting from semifinalist to admit.

3) Wealth did get you into TJ when white people were interested in sending their kids to TJ. Fact is, you can't get into TJ unless you apply to TJ, and white applications plummeted from over 2,000 in the late 90s and early 2000s to less than 600 (compared to over 1,500 Asian applications) in the years leading up to the admissions changes. The evidence that wealth got you into TJ under the most recent version of the old admissions process is the staggering dominance of South Asians, who are by far the wealthiest sub-demographic in Northern Virginia - even surpassing whites.