Aging Parent With Sizable Finances But Mental Health Issues

[Anonymous]

I have 80 something parents. I'm an only child. My had has a sizable amount of money. Probably around 11 million at this point, down from more, because has a lot of it in mutual funds--in fact in A LOT of mutual funds. Like A LOT of different funds. Also a little rental property. I know there are also some trusts. It could be more than this. He doesn't tell my mother much, and up until very recently he wouldn't tell me anything--not because he thinks I am untrustworthy as a person, but because he doesn't think I can manage it well.

He has offered to "teach" me before, but it always ended up devolving into fights because he has these very intricate systems to manage EVERYTHING, and they are crazy. Like they make sense to him but to no one else, and he will start talking about one thing and go on a tangent, and then he'll berate me for not knowing everything he does in this very certain way. So, at some point, I gave up because it always turned ugly. (Also, since I had no idea how much money he had or where--and still don't entirely--it would feel totally theoretical--Finance 101 from my OCD not very nice dad.)

But we had an incident which made it clear that I NEEDED to understand more, because my mother also can't do it (for similar reasons), and if something happens to him, it's going to be a mess. Even things like my offer to digitize the boxes and boxes of old photos and memorabilia sitting in the hall for several years now was met with hostility. Or my offer to put all of his passwords in an excel file, rather than just copied randomly on pages that make them hard to understand or edit. They have rental property where someone has been paying 600 dollars a month for a townhouse that now could probably command 1,500-2,000 a month.

There are just boxes and boxes of documents that he claims are all important, but they are all over the place. They do look somewhat organized? But of course so much could be stored on a computer now.

I don't think my dad has dementia, although he is slipping a little bit, and I it's becoming overwhelming to him. (Although I think there's a part of him that likes this?) Honestly, he's always been like this. Their house looks like Grey Gardens because he refuses to fix anything since he says it isn't worth it, yet they also refuse to move. They literally didn't have a working oven for over a year. And my mom just goes along with it, even though she isn't happy. I think she just gave up.

I realize I get so agitated because I look at it, and it all feels completely overwhelming to me. So, I suggested to my father that we meet about once a week and he pick something each time that we could look through in the course of 1 hour. 1 hour so he won't go on tangents, and we can hopefully not fight.

And that I wouldn't comment. He would just go through the information with me. I might not even give any suggestions, since he won't take them. But I can make my own notes about how he's doing things, so when the time comes, if my husband and I decide to change anything (like maybe having tenants send payment electronically rather than through paper checks), we will at least understand them.

I guess this is partial venting. I am lucky that I will probably inherit this money--although both of my parents like to threaten not leaving it to me when I do or say anything they dislike. (A lot of this money actually came from my dad's inheritance a lot time ago.) But it's also pretty stressful because I have to somehow figure out how to stay calm with my father, who talks down to me, and is kind of reminding me of Howard Hughes in terms of his sanity.

Anyone else in a kind of similar situation? If my parents didn't have anything, I would just focus on making sure they were cared for. But the money creates its own issues. I want it to be safe and understand it---unselfishly and selfishly. But my dad is seriously kind of nuts, a jerk, his way or no way, and possibly developing a hoarding situation. In no way, shape, or form will they accept any outside help.

[Anonymous]

Ugh....first line mistake...my DAD. Not had.

[Anonymous]

I relate so much to this. After many years of this sort of thing I can tell you it got much worse and the attempts to control and abuse with money got much worse. I had to give up on the idea I might inherit any of it and figure out my boundaries. I could not take the yelling when I tried to understand finances and help them face reality or the constant threats with guilt trips and then insults. It wasn't like that early on, but it just got worse.

Regarding accepting outside help, the first step is to get a professional in there to assess need. You make it a one time thing. You stop being available. You need to get the foot in the door. These people are trained to talk to nutty stubborn elderly. Then, go from there.

As I learned from this board, you cannot save them from themselves, if they refuse, but you have to protect others from them. Do your best to help by getting an outsider. Always be willing to hire help with their money, but you have to figure out your boundaries. I did my self in emotionally and physically. It wasn't appreciated and the difficult behavior turned abusive. No amount of therapy, walks in the woods, reading in the tub or doing my nails makes that easier.

I really think there need to be more books and articles about ethical behavior and money and relationships and money. You get to do as you please with your money, but it should never be used as a way to control others or threaten. People should always matter more. I think my parents both had unhealthy relationships with money and no matter how much empathy I can have for why, they crossed a line over and over. Many times I had to say to my mom, it's your money, do as you please, but I will no longer listen to threats, attacks and insults. Her response was basically I am her slave because I might inherit...nope.

[Anonymous]

Honestly the most important thing is to get added to every bank account that you can and get passwords to everything else. Those two things allowed me to manage my mother's finances when she developed dementia (she also lost track of where she had bank accounts) and made everything so much easier when she passed.

[Anonymous]

Declare him incompetent. It worked in that movie based on a real life events.

https://www.moviemaker.com/i-care-a-lot-elder-abuse-marla-grayson/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Declare him incompetent. It worked in that movie based on a real life events.

https://www.moviemaker.com/i-care-a-lot-elder-abuse-marla-grayson/

She said she does not think he has dementia. Even early dementia does not qualify. Plus, she needs to get the financial info and if she declares him incompetent, he aint cooperating.

[Anonymous]

He needs to streamline and consolidate everything into one fund as much as possible.

He needs to inform trustees and beneficiaries of their trusts and provide them the paperwork.

Everything should be organized in a binder for each of his kids and his wife.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if him "teaching" you would go better if you thought of this not as him teaching you how to manage finances, in the abstract, but teaching you how HIS finances are managed. It would help you as the beneficiary/Trustee/executor in whatever situation you'll end up in.

[Anonymous]

I didn’t read the whole thing, but the fact you suggested putting all passwords into an excel file made me seriously question your judgment. That’s a terrible idea.

[Anonymous]

Does he have an estate attorney? Does that estate attorney have information on all of his assets, trusts, estate paperwork?

Do you have health care POA and financial POA?

I actually wound up hiring my own estate attorney to figure out how to handle and interact with my parents wrt their estate. (Because extended family was trying to control and profit off his wealth.) That guy talked me through how to make sure my parents had their estate in order. Luckily I found a good attorney with high emotional intelligence who helped me figure out how to interact with my parents (who were declining) and now my parents estate paperwork is in decent shape, I know all of their assets, I have POA, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does he have an estate attorney? Does that estate attorney have information on all of his assets, trusts, estate paperwork?

Do you have health care POA and financial POA?

I actually wound up hiring my own estate attorney to figure out how to handle and interact with my parents wrt their estate. (Because extended family was trying to control and profit off his wealth.) That guy talked me through how to make sure my parents had their estate in order. Luckily I found a good attorney with high emotional intelligence who helped me figure out how to interact with my parents (who were declining) and now my parents estate paperwork is in decent shape, I know all of their assets, I have POA, etc.

Oh, my other question was, do you know the name of his estate attorney?

If he doesn’t want to involve you, he at least needs to have everything in order with an estate attorney, and you and the estate attorney need to have each other’s names and contact info.

[Anonymous]

My dad has similar assets and is of similar age, and brags to anyone who will listen that he can afford what he wants and how he’s been giving away hundreds of thousands to everyone except us.

When my brother asked my dad who will take care of my mom (she has dementia), my dad told my brother he just wants my dad to die so he can inherit his money, and that if he wants to know anything to speak to his attorney. So yes I can relate to your situation.

We likewise don’t expect to inherit anything, given his strange behavior towards us. I hope I don’t turn mean or paranoid like that if I had a wad of cash.

So we’re thinking of just not dealing with him anymore since that seems to be what he wants.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like a good plan to sit down with him for an hour at a time. Can you record the conversations on your phone? Then you can just let him talk. I would focus on trying to find out if he has all of the legal paperwork taken care.

I will also say that anger and frustration can be signs of dementia.

If he has millions, I don't think it is a big deal if he is charge a low rent to someone. You can deal with increasing the rent once he is gone, but it isn't going to break his financial situation.

I had to take over my dad's finances after a quick onset of dementia or he wasn't able to hide it anymore. I had to scramble and find all of the legal documents and luckily my dad have all of the right paperwork completed (POA, medical directives, trust and will). I did have to get a letter from his doctor to allow me to act as successor trustee.

I think at some point, you just have to let things play out. You can't force him to let you get involved. It make take a devastating event like hospitalization to let you get involved. You might just need to watch from the sidelines.

[Anonymous]

You need a third party. Someone knowledgeable like an estate attorney. Play to his ego by acknowledging how important it is that all of his work be managed and used according to his goals so it’s critical that it all be accounted for and labeled. It doesn’t sound as much like he’s overwhelmed as much as he too is lost in all the work. Get help. It’s important that he have an expert to reason with him without emotion and important for you to have everything packaged manageably since you are less knowledgeable at this stage.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. OP here. This is some good advice. He has an estate lawyer for trusts, but the lawyer does not manage the mutual funds. Good point about the Excel file. I just mean that right now all of the passwords are written on a few laminated papers with no line breaks--half are old or written as acronyms, so I don't know what they stand for. And I fully admit that I am not a "mathy" person. In some ways, he is right not to "trust" me with managing large sums of money. I've never had to do it, and it's scary. I did try to work with him. It just never goes well.

I do think I need to look at it like there is nothing I'm going to change about this. I just need to understand it so that if/when the time comes, when I do need to take over or at least take over to get help from someone else, I can do it. Half of it is managing to control my temper because it's really easy to start feeling like he's talking down to me, and I look around and it's like papers everywhere, house is dilapidated (but livable).

He would not be considered incompetent. He has actually always been like this. Some combo of autism and OCD. EXTREMELY smart in a lot of ways but socially and emotionally not at all. But I think all personality traits amplify with age.

Thanks. Like I said---mostly venting. I have some friends with parents who are also wealthy (probably more money than that), and they don't act like this. I am grateful that this money will---hopefully--exist for me at some point. But my parents also have no long term care plans or anything, so I know some of it may need to be used for their care--which I want! I am really sad seeing my mom live in such a run down place because my dad is nuts and won't move. But she also goes along with it.