Initial boundary options for Woodward study area are up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Hard to say, but they can sometimes build the new building on the field next to the school, then tear down the old building afterwards. That's what they did at Paint Branch and Wheaton.

Were those schools without athletics for several years? If so that’s unfortunate, but I suppose better than bussing cross county to a holding school, just feels like Crown would be perfect to be a holding school to knock out those two oldest renovations needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Most of these schools were cleaned up/repairs, not modernized or updated. Einstein looks like it did many many years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Hard to say, but they can sometimes build the new building on the field next to the school, then tear down the old building afterwards. That's what they did at Paint Branch and Wheaton.

Only if they have the space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Hard to say, but they can sometimes build the new building on the field next to the school, then tear down the old building afterwards. That's what they did at Paint Branch and Wheaton.

Were those schools without athletics for several years? If so that’s unfortunate, but I suppose better than bussing cross county to a holding school, just feels like Crown would be perfect to be a holding school to knock out those two oldest renovations needed.

Some of the DCC schools are close enough they could share the fields with other schools and provid a bus back and forth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious what the Wheaton community thinks the best solution is? Different matriculation pattern or sounds like adding on isn’t possible with the distance between buildings? FLO analytics kept mentioning the Edison building and sounds like that is not helpful? Seems like FLO has a disconnect on this point.

The Wheaton cluster coordinator's testimony in 2023 :

"there is a quick and practical solution to our overcrowding
problem that has yet to be utilized - an unfinished shell located within the
Thomas Edison building. Our Community strongly urges MCPS to build
out and finish that shell so that both Wheaton and Thomas Edison can
use that space to accommodate our growing population."

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/CXCN955EC89E/$file/Narissa%20Johnson%20-%202023%20CIP%20Testimony%20.pdf

It takes years to find something like that and it wouldn’t work as the distance is too far in less they arranged specific students and basically segregated them.

Huh? It's literally there in the Edison building.

I think PP meant fund, not find.

If it were so easy why not do it this summer? Oh, because it will be years before a project like this is approved, planned and designed, let alone built.

FLO Analytics mentioned this Edison shell space during the presentation last week, which means MCPS CO staff must have told them about it as an option under consideration. We can keep an eye out for this fall's CIP to see if it's included. If so, that could be a clue to how Taylor is leaning.

I couldn't follow that part of the presentation. Can you explain how the CIP budget for Edison would signal how Taylor is leaning?

If Taylor adds the Edison shell to the CIP, that could suggest he thinks it's necessary to handle Wheaton's overcrowding, as opposed to options like Option 2 which get Wheaton below capacity via split articulations.

You say “as opposed,” but isn’t Option 2 the only one that addresses Wheaton overcrowding? Arnt they one in the same?

[Anonymous]

I am voting for Option 3 along with a bunch of other people I know. Makes the most send to address racial inequities and demographic changes. Kids are very resilient. It’s not as big of a deal to have split articulation and bussing.It may actually be good for your kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Hard to say, but they can sometimes build the new building on the field next to the school, then tear down the old building afterwards. That's what they did at Paint Branch and Wheaton.

Were those schools without athletics for several years? If so that’s unfortunate, but I suppose better than bussing cross county to a holding school, just feels like Crown would be perfect to be a holding school to knock out those two oldest renovations needed.

Some of the DCC schools are close enough they could share the fields with other schools and provid a bus back and forth.

Agreed. I'm in DCC and rather have a school close with no athletics (or limited fields) than no school and all this trying to wedge too many kids into to few schools close by

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am voting for Option 3 along with a bunch of other people I know. Makes the most send to address racial inequities and demographic changes. Kids are very resilient. It’s not as big of a deal to have split articulation and bussing.It may actually be good for your kid.

lol. Trying to stir things up, right? Nothing about option 3 will actually fix any issues. Please tell me how bussing kids around and mixing them together, will actually help the majority of these low performing students ? It’s all optics. The money should be spent on more programs and tutoring to help these kids; also on addressing home-life issues. Really, everything starts at HOME. If kids don’t have involved parents holding them accountable and supporting their academic development from a young age, the majority won’t go on to be very successful students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve read all 43 pages of this thread and am pretty disheartened. I have not seen one comment in favor of the more disruptive (to the current status quo) options say a single thing about the prospective quality of education improvement that the potential new Whitman and BCC students would receive. Instead, it’s all about sending Whitman and BCC bus loads of poor kids to somehow stick it to them? If those poor kids have to spend 45 minutes on a bus to (somehow?) upset the rich kids, great!

The kids being bussed from poor communities? Those are kids, not props in your vendetta fantasies. The rich kids you’re sticking it to? Also, just kids. The “foolish” communities that want to stay together? Communities of people (that just want to stay together).

Let’s make every school better and every kid’s life better. Let’s not use them as props against each other.

As a poor family. I sorry you don’t want our kids. Actually some of us aren’t that poor, we make different life choices. The best solution would be to open up another hs lower dcc.

Want to give you a big hug. Your kids are wanted. All kids are wanted. To be fair, from what I have read, I think everyone here welcomes diversity of income, culture and race. The problem is that no one of any income level wants to be bused away from their neighborhoods and rightfully so. Every school needs to be stronger and some underperforming schools need more money, support and staff. Whatever it takes, they should get it.

We are wanted as long as we are not in your schools or competition for your kids. No one wants their kids bussed but maybe this will give those kids opportunities they don’t have to get ahead. Our kids don’t have the same opportunities.

Unfortunately it’s a zero sum game and we don’t get do overs with our kids’ education. I’d support funding more opportunities for your kids through modestly higher property taxes but not at the expense of my own kids’ opportunities or busing them across town. Everyone wants the best opportunities for their children (which is why most of us moved to the best place we could afford) and are looking to preserve that as much as possible in an increasingly uncertain world.

Wow we are all on the same team PP. it’s not a zero sum game.

Are we? There's only one (or few) valedictorians and there's an implicit quota in how many kids from each school matriculate to a particular university. We're not in this together and that's been apparent since I set foot in this county or on DCUM and seen others asking questions about the "preferred preschool to get into the Ivy League" or "my DD has the following stats but they don't have a hook and therefore, didn't get into [insert highly selective university]", especially as our kids get closer and closer to high school. We're more like participants running the gauntlet in The Hunger Games where "may the odds ever be in your favor". This is the meritocracy that we find ourselves in and the system that each of us has to face (or ignore). So forgive me if I don't want my kids being bussed across town to a different school and not the neighborhood school I've already paid a high cost entry fee to get into.

You did not pay a "fee" to "get into" your neighborhood. You purchased an asset, which you can sell or rent out if you want.

I purchased an asset at a several hundred thousand dollar premium to comparable assets because of its access to a desirable public school cluster.

Hard eye roll. You never signed a contract with MCPS to guarantee you that school. That’s a you problem.

You don’t need to be unkind. Even buyers without school age children can and should take school assignments into consideration because it directly impacts home value. While boundaries can and do change, it’s not an unreasonable position to feel you’re not getting what you felt you planned for or a reasonably comparable alternative. MCPS should not be in the position of making numerous families feel bait-and-switched.

Greetings from 2025. MCPS has several overcrowded high schools and has therefore worked to construct two new high schools to reduce or hopefully eliminate overcrowding. In order for that to happen, many students will need to be reassigned to different schools. There is simply no way around that.

Obviously some people will need to shift. But certain proposed options on the table create big changes that no one could have reasonably expected or anticipated. I’m not even personally in this position but it’s obviously upsetting for those who are and I don’t like all the anonymous victim blaming.

There are no victims right now. Nobody has been impacted by these decisions. Some may be worried that their home values are impacted by the simple consideration of them, but you have to understand how entitled and whiny that sounds. MCPS needs to manage its facilities effectively and efficiently. Having schools that are over capacity and others that are under capacity is not efficient. Concentrating poverty in certain schools undermines the kids' education, kids who by and large want to learn, despite some of the truly disgusting stereotypes articulated just in the last few pages of this thread.

I absolutely agree that long bus rides can be disruptive to families of all backgrounds and should be avoided. But this notion that MCPS should be held responsible for your property values is truly absurd and entitled. Learn a little something about how you have personally benefited from the history of oppression perpetrated by the government. Your home value would not be what it is today with is it redlining and racist exclusionary zoning. Jfc.

Discrimination in housing was outlawed in 1968. In 1970, Montgomery County was 94.5% white, 4.1% black and 0.8% Asian. These minority populations were so small that they had almost no impact on housing locations or values. The small black population was concentrated in locations that many people now would believe had desirable schools: Scotland, Lincoln Park, Janetta, downtown Rockville, Ken-Gar, etc. If you are trying to say that it was racial discrimination that kept people out of the county entirely, I guess that I could listen to that argument.

Housing value is due to proximity to jobs and amenities.

The situation now in Montgomery County is so far from those days of racial discrimination that it is ridiculous to use those as a bludgeon to get the policies you desire. White students now make up only approximately 24% of MCPS. Just like it would have been pointless in 1970 to try and spread those black kids around the county to make sure that there was no segregation, it will now become pointless to try and spread white kids around to achieve racial balance. Instead of trying to achieve income balance, MCPS should stop wasting money on buses and spend the funds trying to provide a strong educational foundation for poor kids wherever they are.

Posts like these make me wish DCUM had a love button. This is very well said!

Except it's tragically ignorant. A testament to the failure of our education system in the US.

Hmmm... care to actually expose my ignorance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone tell me why MoCo has split articulation? I can see a definition on MCPS but it seems like a practice that leads to a pretty awkward middle school experience. Kids do not bother making friends with other kids who they know are going off to a different high school. It was difficult recruiting parents to invest their time in PTA and volunteer efforts because no one was invested in the school. It cast a shadow over the whole experience for us.

It’s not ideal for sure but it’s not as bad as you might think. I went to Cabin John and then Churchill. At the time it was probably 65-70% went to Wootton and 30-35% to Churchill. I was definitely friends with a lot of people who went to Wootton and it was really sad to split up for high school but once a month or two of high school passed most people made friends with kids from the other middle school Hoover.

Where things would be really bad would be if say 20-30% or less of an ES went to a different MS. Or if a small percentage of an ES went to the same MS as the rest of their ES but then split up and went to a different HS and was maybe 10%-25% of a MS going to a HS.

I did the same (CJ to Churchill) and it was not a big deal looking back. It was sad in the moment and of course 8th grade drama llamas made it seem like the end of our lives. It was fun to have friends from other high schools and I’m still friends with some of my middle school Wootton friends 20+ years later!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems like this thread has lost the plot.

There isn't really that much to discuss. There are 4 initial options that aren't really going to be considered because they made zero effort to balance the 4 factors mandated by BOE policy. This is a nothingburger.

No surprise people started bickering instead.

I think it's an indication that Flo Analytics and the MCPS board are terrible at their jobs, by releasing maps that will just make people bicker and not try to reach and sort of workable solutions.

***My spouse is a management consultant (yes, I know, haha, but they advise in the industrial sector not human resources ie they don’t get people fired)… When I shared the boundary study info and options with them, they were astounded by the ineptitude. They said it’s wasting all stakeholders’ time and money to have concocted any options - preliminary or otherwise - that each optimize for only one of the four key factors. Period, full stop.

And now the thread has devolved into bickering about home values. Look what those a$$hat consultants and MCPS have made us do: We are turning on each other when instead we need to coalesce to lobby on behalf of MoCo children — our own kids and our neighbors’. Don’t let the bastards grind you down! <—“Handmaid’s Tale”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone tell me why MoCo has split articulation? I can see a definition on MCPS but it seems like a practice that leads to a pretty awkward middle school experience. Kids do not bother making friends with other kids who they know are going off to a different high school. It was difficult recruiting parents to invest their time in PTA and volunteer efforts because no one was invested in the school. It cast a shadow over the whole experience for us.

The key though is that CJMS to WCHS cohort was like 125-150 kids at least who then became part of a 450-500 class. Having a real tiny number would not be great.

It’s not ideal for sure but it’s not as bad as you might think. I went to Cabin John and then Churchill. At the time it was probably 65-70% went to Wootton and 30-35% to Churchill. I was definitely friends with a lot of people who went to Wootton and it was really sad to split up for high school but once a month or two of high school passed most people made friends with kids from the other middle school Hoover.

Where things would be really bad would be if say 20-30% or less of an ES went to a different MS. Or if a small percentage of an ES went to the same MS as the rest of their ES but then split up and went to a different HS and was maybe 10%-25% of a MS going to a HS.

I did the same (CJ to Churchill) and it was not a big deal looking back. It was sad in the moment and of course 8th grade drama llamas made it seem like the end of our lives. It was fun to have friends from other high schools and I’m still friends with some of my middle school Wootton friends 20+ years later!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone tell me why MoCo has split articulation? I can see a definition on MCPS but it seems like a practice that leads to a pretty awkward middle school experience. Kids do not bother making friends with other kids who they know are going off to a different high school. It was difficult recruiting parents to invest their time in PTA and volunteer efforts because no one was invested in the school. It cast a shadow over the whole experience for us.

It’s not ideal for sure but it’s not as bad as you might think. I went to Cabin John and then Churchill. At the time it was probably 65-70% went to Wootton and 30-35% to Churchill. I was definitely friends with a lot of people who went to Wootton and it was really sad to split up for high school but once a month or two of high school passed most people made friends with kids from the other middle school Hoover.

Where things would be really bad would be if say 20-30% or less of an ES went to a different MS. Or if a small percentage of an ES went to the same MS as the rest of their ES but then split up and went to a different HS and was maybe 10%-25% of a MS going to a HS.

I did the same (CJ to Churchill) and it was not a big deal looking back. It was sad in the moment and of course 8th grade drama llamas made it seem like the end of our lives. It was fun to have friends from other high schools and I’m still friends with some of my middle school Wootton friends 20+ years later!

Yeah but the key was CJMS to WCHS cohort was at least 125-150 kids who became a part of a 450-500 person class. Too much smaller wouldn’t have been good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am voting for Option 3 along with a bunch of other people I know. Makes the most send to address racial inequities and demographic changes. Kids are very resilient. It’s not as big of a deal to have split articulation and bussing.It may actually be good for your kid.

lol. Trying to stir things up, right? Nothing about option 3 will actually fix any issues. Please tell me how bussing kids around and mixing them together, will actually help the majority of these low performing students ? It’s all optics. The money should be spent on more programs and tutoring to help these kids; also on addressing home-life issues. Really, everything starts at HOME. If kids don’t have involved parents holding them accountable and supporting their academic development from a young age, the majority won’t go on to be very successful students.

dp.. let me start off by stating that Option 3 is ridiculous. Expecting low income kids to take a longer bus ride to school (that starts at 7:40am) is cruel. A lot of these kids already have a harder time at home, and expecting them to get up earlier to make MCPS DEI people feel better about themselves is cruel. Not to mention the higher transportation cost to the school, funds that could be used to hire more teachers. FWIW, I grew up lower income (immigrant family).

That said, there are some studies that have found that low income kids can do better in schools that don't have a very high FARMs rate. It's not because they become high achieving by osmosis, but more that the school probably has more challenging classes, less behavioral issues, and high achieving academic peers. Years ago when there was another boundary study here, someone provided a link that showed that low income kids do best when the FARMs rate at the school is less than 30%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair isn't in its own cluster because the density in DTSS and TkPk fills it before you even get outside of the Beltway. This was a known thing when they moved it to its current location.

MCPS could have acquired the Adventist site in TkPk, used it for Northwood holding and then built a new high school there to alleviate Blair, but no. Or they could have bought the Discovery editing building on Kennett in DTSS to use for Northwood holding and turned that into an urban high school campus that would have alleviated Blair crowding and could have provided an alternative high school experience for kids who don't do well in huge suburban campus high schools like we build.

But instead they were pennywise and pound foolish and used Woodward for Northwood holding, meaning those kids are bused to North Bethesda for three years and don't even have sports fields or an auditorium.

One thing that I’ve wondered about is what’s the plan for the high school renovations that are massively overdue as well as others coming due over the next decade. I believe Northwood was the holding school for years, but that’s not possible now Woodward will be unavailable and Crown will be filled in. Seems like Crown should become a new holding school to do Wootton and Magruder.

The oldest schools (25+) are built in:

Magruder - 1970
Wootton - 1970
QO - 1988
Sherwood - renovated 1991
Einstein - renovated 1997
Northwest - built 1998
Blair - built 1998
Kennedy - renovated 1999
Churchill - renovated 2001

Hard to say, but they can sometimes build the new building on the field next to the school, then tear down the old building afterwards. That's what they did at Paint Branch and Wheaton.

That’s what they did when they built a new Whitman in the early 1990s. They built the new building in the parking lot/fields and tore down the old building afterwards. It was a smooth transition from freshman year in the old building to sophomore year in the new building.