Why are people more sympathetic to Lindsay Clancy than Andrea Yates? (Child death mentioned)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

The actions of psychotic people often do not.

[Anonymous]

No typically you aren't charged for a sudden medical emergency like a heart attack.

But you can be held liable if you have a condition that makes you a risk and you get behind the wheel like someone with epilepsy not taking medication or getting behind the wheel on a medication that can cause impaired driving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone else watch the arraignment? I don’t think she planned this. If she was planning to kill her kids, why did she take them to the pediatrician that morning? Why was she calling around to different pharmacies looking for the right kind of pedialax for her kids and then sending her husband to go get it? It just makes no sense.

Gosh this is sad. I wish I hadn’t watched it.

Creating a narrative. Plenty of murderers do normal things hours before they kill.
Sometimes it's a set up for the victims, sometimes it's an albi, sometimes it's to create doubt" see I did all this. I wouldn't have done this if I wanted to harm them.

Or as pp said it was because she was at peace with her decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

Boom! That's all it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Also folks are acting like she needed those 30-45 min alone and that’s why she planned this whole take out excursion intentionally. Again this makes no sense to me, she was the primary caregiver if you look at the timeline she had plenty of time alone with the children. And if she was a master manipulator why wouldn’t she have planned better??? This left 0 chance she wouldn’t be very clearly the killer. The whole argument makes nooo sense. If she was such a master and wanted a different life why wouldn’t she have planned even a tiny bit better?

Also folks are acting like they know the extent of what Lindsay has said over these last days because they’ve heard a few small sound bites. We know very little.

She really wasn't "alone" with the kids. Her husband worked from home. Do you think she could have strangled her five year old in the doctor's office?

Her husband worked in the basement. She could easily have killed her kids on the top floor without him hearing. A child being asphyxiated by an exercise band cannot scream or cry, so if she killed them one by one in separate rooms they wouldn’t even be able to alert each other of the danger.

This was a psychotic break. As Rusty Yates said, if she’d had a cardiac arrest or seizure while driving and all three kids perished but she didn’t, it wouldn’t even be a consideration to prosecute her. Since she is a woman of childbearing age she should be hospitalized and supervised until she no longer is a woman of childbearing age. That’s appropriate justice, I think.

Well yes. If there is any man we can trust, it's Rusty Yates. I'm so glad he has spoken up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how she was not diagnosed with postpartum depression or anxiety, yet she had suicidal ideation and an infant at home. What ruled it out as PPD/PPA and made it GAD instead? Also, she had a terrible reaction to zoloft. SSRIs can trigger mania and even psychosis in people with bipolar disorder. At any rate, her mental health sounds complicated and ambiguous. I made the mistake of watching the arraignment.

Providers make mistakes. Sometimes a lot of them.

Where did you see she had bipolar disorder?

DP here. The only official medical diagnosis that has so far been released is GAD. (Generalized Anxiety Disorder.) She herself referred to it as anxiety in Social media posts.

That's right. But as everyone here who has been through serious mental health problems--our own or those of family members--knows, it is not uncommon for a psychiatric illness to have what is effectively a prodromal phase, where some symptoms are present and it looks like one thing, and then a full-blown phase, where many more symptoms are present and it's clear what is or is not wrong. Some people are psychiatric patients for decades with diagnoses that are not perfectly clear and medication histories that match that.

People want to believe that diagnosing mental illness is a straight one in column A, any three out of these seven in column B thing. The DSM is written that way. But if you talk to providers who are conscientious, they will all tell you that the DSM is not the Gospel. It is psychiatrists' best collective effort at characterizing various states of psychiatric illness and health. Actual patients exist outside the boundaries of those efforts pretty frequently.

So: she could have had PPD or PPA that she hid (because it's stigmatized! which promotes hiding) and become psychotic in the course of that.

But PP is also, with reason, raising the question of whether she might be a person who is bipolar, whose initial symptoms were activated rather than depressed (looking more like generalized anxiety, less like mania), and who had deterioration triggered by medications that are often (NOT ALWAYS) a poor fit for people with bipolar disorder.

Yes to the above. I'm the PP from the original post who was confused about her diagnosis of GAD and the statement that she did not meet criteria for PPA/PPD despite having a young infant. I have a family member who took years to get correct diagnosis and treatment for BD I. Years of manic episodes were treated as anxiety and made dangerously worse by an SSRI and Xanax. It took a severe psychotic break to finally get the appropriate diagnosis and treatment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Also folks are acting like she needed those 30-45 min alone and that’s why she planned this whole take out excursion intentionally. Again this makes no sense to me, she was the primary caregiver if you look at the timeline she had plenty of time alone with the children. And if she was a master manipulator why wouldn’t she have planned better??? This left 0 chance she wouldn’t be very clearly the killer. The whole argument makes nooo sense. If she was such a master and wanted a different life why wouldn’t she have planned even a tiny bit better?

Also folks are acting like they know the extent of what Lindsay has said over these last days because they’ve heard a few small sound bites. We know very little.

She really wasn't "alone" with the kids. Her husband worked from home. Do you think she could have strangled her five year old in the doctor's office?

Her husband worked in the basement. She could easily have killed her kids on the top floor without him hearing. A child being asphyxiated by an exercise band cannot scream or cry, so if she killed them one by one in separate rooms they wouldn’t even be able to alert each other of the danger.

This was a psychotic break. As Rusty Yates said, if she’d had a cardiac arrest or seizure while driving and all three kids perished but she didn’t, it wouldn’t even be a consideration to prosecute her. Since she is a woman of childbearing age she should be hospitalized and supervised until she no longer is a woman of childbearing age. That’s appropriate justice, I think.

Well yes. If there is any man we can trust, it's Rusty Yates. I'm so glad he has spoken up.

Yes, he's a sh1thead, but can we concede that the deaths of all five of his children may have forced some self-reflection in the intervening years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

Agree and the over medication seems like a losing argument based on the information we have. He also said she cannot show emotion but she did during the hearing - she wiped away a tear and was shaking at certain points. I really think he is doing a poor job but maybe will do better if there is a full trial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

Agree and the over medication seems like a losing argument based on the information we have. He also said she cannot show emotion but she did during the hearing - she wiped away a tear and was shaking at certain points. I really think he is doing a poor job but maybe will do better if there is a full trial.

I was honestly thinking a public defender might do better than him to preserve her rights! He doesn't really seem to understand how to set up a convincing defense. With $1M you would think her husband could find someone better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

It would surprise me greatly if he's the attorney at trial.

In any event, he doesn't have to do the opposite in the hearing about whether or not she gets bail. She is paralyzed, can't leave a hospital currently, and so there's nothing to win in terms of bail potentially being set if he'd argued XY or Z. Assuming she's competent to participate in her defense, she is going to be tried--and the voir dire will be extensive, for all the reasons manifest here, so a particular possible juror seeing better or more eloquent arguments two days ago would not be helpful in any way. All he had to do was show up for the record. He did.

[Anonymous]

("Do the opposite" of the prosecutor making the case, that is.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

It would surprise me greatly if he's the attorney at trial.

In any event, he doesn't have to do the opposite in the hearing about whether or not she gets bail. She is paralyzed, can't leave a hospital currently, and so there's nothing to win in terms of bail potentially being set if he'd argued XY or Z. Assuming she's competent to participate in her defense, she is going to be tried--and the voir dire will be extensive, for all the reasons manifest here, so a particular possible juror seeing better or more eloquent arguments two days ago would not be helpful in any way. All he had to do was show up for the record. He did.

So why aren't they using who they intend to use long term? He's already the second attorney she has had. Do we know if the attorney was hired by the parents? Who does the attorney work for besides Lindsay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Again, the prosecutions job was to paint a picture for you that would leave you upset and horrified. That is their job. Pick the pieces that will tell the most convincing story to convince you this woman is dangerous because as a prosecutor it is my job to make sure she remains under custody right now. Which that is so correct and necessary. But the fact the everyone doesn’t seem to understand that this is their job - to paint a picture and to only take the details that serve them is interesting. They did a good job, but it doesn’t mean it’s telling the full picture.

Well and the defense's job is the opposite of that, show that she isn't dangerous so she isn't held without bail. Why did the defense not try to paint her as a loving mother who was horrified by what had happened? Instead we got some nonsense about a wishing jar.

The defense attorney really seems like an odd choice - he seems kind of nutty and looney and presented almost no facts. Just a big rant about postpartum mothers not receiving good healthcare and how many people had written letters supporting Lindsay. He didn't really present any facts though.

It would surprise me greatly if he's the attorney at trial.

In any event, he doesn't have to do the opposite in the hearing about whether or not she gets bail. She is paralyzed, can't leave a hospital currently, and so there's nothing to win in terms of bail potentially being set if he'd argued XY or Z. Assuming she's competent to participate in her defense, she is going to be tried--and the voir dire will be extensive, for all the reasons manifest here, so a particular possible juror seeing better or more eloquent arguments two days ago would not be helpful in any way. All he had to do was show up for the record. He did.

So why aren't they using who they intend to use long term? He's already the second attorney she has had. Do we know if the attorney was hired by the parents? Who does the attorney work for besides Lindsay?

The attorney will only work for Lindsay. Who pays or selects is another matter.

I don’t do criminal law. But as a trial lawyer, from what I see there was nothing to win at this hearing. Why would anyone reveal arguments or facts if it SNF going to change the outcome.