Europe’s Abortion Lesson

[Anonymous]

So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

[Anonymous]

Is the US the same as "Europe's countries"? Last I checked, we're a single nation. Also, Europe is not comparable at all. They have more time restrictions, but provide ample access to early-term abortion (paid for), birth control, and health care in general. But sure, if you're idea is that US policy is going to do that to, great!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

Are you people ever going to acknowledge the fact that in Europe, abortion is free and freely obtainable until those limits? That no one needs to wait until they are 14 weeks along to cobble up the money and take an unpaid week off to travel 300 miles and go through all the waiting period and false information BS? That Europeans on the whole engage in comprehensive sex education, birth control is free and freely available, and men take responsibility by wearing condoms? Are you ever going to acknowledge that all of the non-Catholic sh*tholes have also created carve outs that allow a woman to terminate when her life is at risk or the fetus is severely disabled?

We too can have all of these things, but it requires people like YOU engaging in good faith. You have worked years to make abortions as difficult and expensive to get as possible and then blame women for not getting one before they even realize they missed a period. It’s insane the amount of bad faith from the right. I would never trust people like you with anything involving my life. Never.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

Are you people ever going to acknowledge the fact that in Europe, abortion is free and freely obtainable until those limits? That no one needs to wait until they are 14 weeks along to cobble up the money and take an unpaid week off to travel 300 miles and go through all the waiting period and false information BS? That Europeans on the whole engage in comprehensive sex education, birth control is free and freely available, and men take responsibility by wearing condoms? Are you ever going to acknowledge that all of the non-Catholic sh*tholes have also created carve outs that allow a woman to terminate when her life is at risk or the fetus is severely disabled?

We too can have all of these things, but it requires people like YOU engaging in good faith. You have worked years to make abortions as difficult and expensive to get as possible and then blame women for not getting one before they even realize they missed a period. It’s insane the amount of bad faith from the right. I would never trust people like you with anything involving my life. Never.

+1

Make abortion free and easily accessed, without any of the BS "waiting periods" and misinformation that doctors are required to give patients in certain states and then we can talk about tighter restrictions in the 2nd trimester.

Most abortions occur in the first trimester anyway. Anyone who knows anything about abortion knows that.

[Anonymous]

And you are wrong in most cases. It is very easy to get an abortion in Italy, France, Scandinavia, etc. Yes, most of the abortions are done early and with medication via national health services. However, abortions can be performed in the second and third trimester if there is a risk to the physical or mental health/life of the pregnant woman or if the child will suffer from severe illness - the woman needing the abortions needs to doctors to sign off on it. 99% of these abortions are approved. Nothing like the crazy BS that happens here. It's really a death cult masquerading as a "pro-life" group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

Are you people ever going to acknowledge the fact that in Europe, abortion is free and freely obtainable until those limits? That no one needs to wait until they are 14 weeks along to cobble up the money and take an unpaid week off to travel 300 miles and go through all the waiting period and false information BS? That Europeans on the whole engage in comprehensive sex education, birth control is free and freely available, and men take responsibility by wearing condoms? Are you ever going to acknowledge that all of the non-Catholic sh*tholes have also created carve outs that allow a woman to terminate when her life is at risk or the fetus is severely disabled?

We too can have all of these things, but it requires people like YOU engaging in good faith. You have worked years to make abortions as difficult and expensive to get as possible and then blame women for not getting one before they even realize they missed a period. It’s insane the amount of bad faith from the right. I would never trust people like you with anything involving my life. Never.

Wow, talk about bad faith. Did you even bother to read the editorial? Plenty of fairly restrictive policies in many European countries after a certain point - and that cutoff is often far earlier than even Mississippi. There are indeed waiting periods and Polish women have to travel to another EU country to obtain abortions. Where are you getting the absurd notion that abortion is available whenever and wherever in Europe? And btw, I’m pro-choice - within reason. So you can get off your soapbox and maybe actually try reading the link before hurling lies.

“Poland and a hand­ful of small, ma­jor­ity-Catholic coun­tries are at the other end of the spec­trum, ban­ning abor­tion un­der most cir­cum­stances al­though women can avail of free move­ment within the Eu­ropean Union to travel to an­other coun­try.

Abor­tion in Swe­den is avail­able on-de­mand up to the 18th week, and af­ter that only with med­ical per­mis­sion if the fe­tus isn’t vi­able. In Italy it’s in the first 90 days. Many coun­tries, such as Den­mark, Ger­many and Bel­gium, al­low abor­tion on de­mand up to the 12th week, while France re­cently ex­tended it to 14 and in Por­tu­gal it’s 10. Coun­tries tend to ap­ply stricter lim­its af­ter those times, such as re­quir­ing sign-off from mul­ti­ple doc­tors or al­low­ing later abor­tions only if the moth­er’s life is in dan­ger.

With­out court rul­ings man­dat­ing abor­tion ac­cess, Eu­ropean vot­ers by and large have cho­sen to per­mit it in a way that would dis­ap­point Amer­i­can pro-lif­ers. But even lib­eral and largely sec­u­lar Eu­ropeans im­pose the sort of lim­i­ta­tion on abor­tion that Amer­i­ca’s pro-choice left claims to find in­tol­er­a-ble. Mis­sis­sip­pi’s ban, which is the law at is­sue now at the Supreme Court, be­gins af­ter 15 weeks.

Eu­ropean laws also in­clude wait­ing pe­ri­ods for abor­tion in some coun­tries, such as seven days in Italy and three in Ger­many. Den­mark and the Nether­lands are among sev­eral coun­tries that re­quire parental con­sent be­fore mi­nors can ob­tain an abor­tion. Ger­many and Bel­gium re­quire coun­sel­ing first.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

Are you people ever going to acknowledge the fact that in Europe, abortion is free and freely obtainable until those limits? That no one needs to wait until they are 14 weeks along to cobble up the money and take an unpaid week off to travel 300 miles and go through all the waiting period and false information BS? That Europeans on the whole engage in comprehensive sex education, birth control is free and freely available, and men take responsibility by wearing condoms? Are you ever going to acknowledge that all of the non-Catholic sh*tholes have also created carve outs that allow a woman to terminate when her life is at risk or the fetus is severely disabled?

We too can have all of these things, but it requires people like YOU engaging in good faith. You have worked years to make abortions as difficult and expensive to get as possible and then blame women for not getting one before they even realize they missed a period. It’s insane the amount of bad faith from the right. I would never trust people like you with anything involving my life. Never.

Wow, talk about bad faith. Did you even bother to read the editorial? Plenty of fairly restrictive policies in many European countries after a certain point - and that cutoff is often far earlier than even Mississippi. There are indeed waiting periods and Polish women have to travel to another EU country to obtain abortions. Where are you getting the absurd notion that abortion is available whenever and wherever in Europe? And btw, I’m pro-choice - within reason. So you can get off your soapbox and maybe actually try reading the link before hurling lies.

“Poland and a hand­ful of small, ma­jor­ity-Catholic coun­tries are at the other end of the spec­trum, ban­ning abor­tion un­der most cir­cum­stances al­though women can avail of free move­ment within the Eu­ropean Union to travel to an­other coun­try.

Abor­tion in Swe­den is avail­able on-de­mand up to the 18th week, and af­ter that only with med­ical per­mis­sion if the fe­tus isn’t vi­able. In Italy it’s in the first 90 days. Many coun­tries, such as Den­mark, Ger­many and Bel­gium, al­low abor­tion on de­mand up to the 12th week, while France re­cently ex­tended it to 14 and in Por­tu­gal it’s 10. Coun­tries tend to ap­ply stricter lim­its af­ter those times, such as re­quir­ing sign-off from mul­ti­ple doc­tors or al­low­ing later abor­tions only if the moth­er’s life is in dan­ger.

With­out court rul­ings man­dat­ing abor­tion ac­cess, Eu­ropean vot­ers by and large have cho­sen to per­mit it in a way that would dis­ap­point Amer­i­can pro-lif­ers. But even lib­eral and largely sec­u­lar Eu­ropeans im­pose the sort of lim­i­ta­tion on abor­tion that Amer­i­ca’s pro-choice left claims to find in­tol­er­a-ble. Mis­sis­sip­pi’s ban, which is the law at is­sue now at the Supreme Court, be­gins af­ter 15 weeks.

Eu­ropean laws also in­clude wait­ing pe­ri­ods for abor­tion in some coun­tries, such as seven days in Italy and three in Ger­many. Den­mark and the Nether­lands are among sev­eral coun­tries that re­quire parental con­sent be­fore mi­nors can ob­tain an abor­tion. Ger­many and Bel­gium re­quire coun­sel­ing first.”

I don't think anyone wants to hold up Poland as a paragon of reproductive rights.

And again, in the other countries, the earlier cut off is coupled with a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SYSTEM that prevents the delays that lead to second-trimester abortions, as well as a non-onerous process to get an exemption. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Finally, European countries date pregnancies differently than the US, so you have to add 2 weeks. Portugal's 10 week limit would be 12 weeks in the US.

[Anonymous]

^^^ Which is still more restrictive than Mississippi’s policy.

[Anonymous]

^^^^ Thank you for injecting intelligence and truth into this thread. The WSJ editorial is spot on and so are your comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Which is still more restrictive than Mississippi’s policy.

FFS, no it is not more restrictive than Mississsippi's policy. Abortion policies are about ACCESS, not just weeks of pregnancy. But sure, if your argument is that US states should provide abortion access same as Europe, I'm all for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Which is still more restrictive than Mississippi’s policy.

FFS, no it is not more restrictive than Mississsippi's policy. Abortion policies are about ACCESS, not just weeks of pregnancy. But sure, if your argument is that US states should provide abortion access same as Europe, I'm all for it.

Portugal is also a country that was run by a Catholic fascist dictator less than fifty years ago, so maybe not the best comparison to the US.

[Anonymous]

This whole thread is gaslighting, just like the people who were saying "Oh, Roe will never be overturned!" before. There is absolutely zero reason to believe that US states will naturally protect abortion rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much truth here. Europe’s countries all have different limits on abortion - just as we will if the states are given the right to legislate this issue. Europe has managed to let their voters make the decision.

In Europe, abortion is legal in most countries, with limits that are more strict than ours, as a result of DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

“Note that Eu­ropean abor­tion pol­icy has mostly ended up where opin­ion polls sug­gest most Amer­i­cans would pre­fer to be: with abor­tion le­gal in the first trimester but with more re­stric­tions later, and with some checks such as a wait­ing pe­riod or parental notif­ication for mi­nors. The main abor­tion les­son from Eu­rope is that vot­ers can be trusted with such an im­por­tant is­sue.

If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization as last week’s leak suggests, this new abortion politics will be an adjustment for partisans—on both sides—accustomed to haranguing 100 Senators over Supreme Court nominations rather than persuading millions of voters. But what a relief if America can look forward one day to the relative political peace Europe enjoys on this contentious moral question.”   

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-abortion-law-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-european-union-leak-alito-dobbs-pro-life-choice-civil-womens-rights-11651757568

Americans are absolutely trusted to make decisions about abortion, just with certain limits on what legislatures can do (the normal situation when dealing with someone's rights). Restrictions later in pregnancy, waiting periods, and notification requirements are all features of American abortion law where the legislatures have enacted them. Overturning Roe and Casey is completely unnecessary to have those restrictions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is gaslighting, just like the people who were saying "Oh, Roe will never be overturned!" before. There is absolutely zero reason to believe that US states will naturally protect abortion rights.

The GOP has shown themselves to be misogynistic religious freaks. Now that people are slowly starting to catch on that the GOP wants to end democracy and install a fascist theocracy, they’re trying to change the subject.

[Anonymous]

German women have been fighting to loosen their abortion restrictions for a long time and recently had a victory in that regard, when the court struck down a law forbidding doctors to hand out information about abortions.