College Football--Big Ten Expansion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if Stanford University offered to join the Big Ten Conference at a 50% payout forever, there is no value to the Big Ten Conference. Stanford's football value is in its rivalry relationship with Notre Dame.

Maybe Stanford could try being an independent for a year or two rather than dropping its football program, but there just do not appear to be any other economically viable options for Stanford football. And Cal football is in a worse position than Stanford football.

Stanford because they are Stanford would not take anything less than a full payout. Anything less damages the overall brand.

Do you realize that not even the University of Washington and the University of Oregon will be receiving full share payouts during their first 6 or 7 years in the Big Ten Conference ? And Washington & Oregon are much more valuable football brands than is Stanford.

[Anonymous]

I think in this thread there is a lack of understanding about what is important to the high academic schools.

Stanford does not recruit against Cal. Much like ND their base is national.

And it is smart. Will they dip to a solid B student who as no chance of getting in otherwise but is solid as a student and a great receiver-- yes. A few recruits. Most of the rest are A students. They are going to Stanford because they are smart and because they are really good at football. There are maybe 5 kids that would be recruited by both Stanford and Alabama.

What is important to Stanford as a university is to play good games against good teams so that the rest of the student body has a break from learning to change the universe. National Title run? Great. But it is a adjunct to the school, the tail not the dog.

That is what they care about.

Duke and BC are somewhat similar even if lower ranked by USNWS. BC is not taking C students on their teams. It is what has killed them in basketball. Duke makes exceptions for basketball and only a little for football.

In football neither wants to compete for a national championship. If they got one, great. But that is not the goal. They want games against Clemson, Miami, FSU that they win or lose but that students and alums like. For BC it is ok to beat FSU only once in a while so the kids can storm the field.

Those schools want a top conference for the games.

These schools (and Wake most likely) have different motivations.

That is why this is difficult. If everyone wanted just football glory or money this would be easy. But there is more of an agenda here for a number of the schools.

[Anonymous]

An ACC/SEC merger would damage the overall value of the SEC regarding football.

The SEC would like: FSU, Clemson, U Miami, UNC, and Virginia.

Unlikely that the SEC would have interest in Boston College, Louisville, Syracuse, Duke, or Wake Forest University.

Georgia would object to Georgia Tech & win that objection within the SEC.

Virginia Tech & NC State might be paired with Virginia and UNC respectively due to state politics.

U Pitt is interesting if the SEC wants a footprint in Pennsylvania to open up recruiting channels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if Stanford University offered to join the Big Ten Conference at a 50% payout forever, there is no value to the Big Ten Conference. Stanford's football value is in its rivalry relationship with Notre Dame.

Maybe Stanford could try being an independent for a year or two rather than dropping its football program, but there just do not appear to be any other economically viable options for Stanford football. And Cal football is in a worse position than Stanford football.

Stanford because they are Stanford would not take anything less than a full payout. Anything less damages the overall brand.

Do you realize that not even the University of Washington and the University of Oregon will be receiving full share payouts during their first 6 or 7 years in the Big Ten Conference ? And Washington & Oregon are much more valuable football brands than is Stanford.

I do and it is why you do not see Stanford begging to join.

ACC has no half share.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If ND, Cal, and Stanford joined the ACC -- the ND schedule

Stanford
Cal
Miami
BC
GTech
Clemson
Duke - for the win
Wake - for the win

Navy
USC

They would do this.

Every rival is 3 time zones away, except for each other. It doesn’t work. Why do you think the Big aren’t added Washington and Oregon. I expect the Big Ten to eventually include Stanford and Berkeley, simply to anppease its west coast participants.

Not that big of a deal and that is what we are moving to. either 2, 3, or 4 national conferences. I doubt 4. Most likely 2 SEC and Big10 but possibly ACC if they could do it right. The move to national conferences is happening. Indeed it is why an ACC/SEC merger is not far fetched.

An ACC/SEC is far-fetched because ESPN is not paying SEC money to Wake Forest, Duke, and Boston College.

Do not be so sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think in this thread there is a lack of understanding about what is important to the high academic schools.

Stanford does not recruit against Cal. Much like ND their base is national.

And it is smart. Will they dip to a solid B student who as no chance of getting in otherwise but is solid as a student and a great receiver-- yes. A few recruits. Most of the rest are A students. They are going to Stanford because they are smart and because they are really good at football. There are maybe 5 kids that would be recruited by both Stanford and Alabama.

What is important to Stanford as a university is to play good games against good teams so that the rest of the student body has a break from learning to change the universe. National Title run? Great. But it is a adjunct to the school, the tail not the dog.

That is what they care about.

Duke and BC are somewhat similar even if lower ranked by USNWS. BC is not taking C students on their teams. It is what has killed them in basketball. Duke makes exceptions for basketball and only a little for football.

In football neither wants to compete for a national championship. If they got one, great. But that is not the goal. They want games against Clemson, Miami, FSU that they win or lose but that students and alums like. For BC it is ok to beat FSU only once in a while so the kids can storm the field.

Those schools want a top conference for the games.

These schools (and Wake most likely) have different motivations.

That is why this is difficult. If everyone wanted just football glory or money this would be easy. But there is more of an agenda here for a number of the schools.

Nice write-up, but not entirely accurate.

This is why earlier in the thread I suggested that Cal & Stanford consider joining the Ivy League athletic conference. It was meant to be partially serious and partially humorous.

Northwestern University is another school--like Stanford & Duke--which maintain high academic standards even for football recruits. But Duke & Northwestern have homes and Stanford is homeless. Therefore, Stanford needs to reassess and determine whether or not fielding a football team is reasonable.

National recruits as well as 4 and 5 star football recruits won't consider a homeless Stanford football program; Notre Dame can do that as a member of the one team NBC conference, but Stanford doesn't have Notre Dame's fan base or quality of football program. The top football recruits want exposure on national television.

For schools with more than a football agenda--or at least placing football on a similar level as academics--then that school needs to go where best suited for those institutional priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

Here’s my take:

The Big Ten will eventually add Stanford and Berkeley partly because there are lots of Big Ten graduates in California. Those graduates will often outnumber the local partisans at games, just like what often happens at Northwestern. There are plenty of marquis teams in the Big Ten already. There is a need for more gimme games for the top teams going into a 10 game conference schedule. Stanford and Cal add huge prestige with mediocre competition, something that few other schools could present themselves to the conference. The heads of the Big Ten like top academic members more so than those of the SEC and Big 12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

Two issues with your post: The University of Washington is an excellent school with respect to academics and a research powerhouse only second to U Michigan among D-1 football schools.

The Big 12 Conference did not pass on Oregon & Washington; the Big 12 Conference acted in a realistic manner understanding that both Oregon & Washington were coveted by the Big Ten Conference and vice-versa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

Here’s my take:

The Big Ten will eventually add Stanford and Berkeley partly because there are lots of Big Ten graduates in California. Those graduates will often outnumber the local partisans at games, just like what often happens at Northwestern. There are plenty of marquis teams in the Big Ten already. There is a need for more gimme games for the top teams going into a 10 game conference schedule. Stanford and Cal add huge prestige with mediocre competition, something that few other schools could present themselves to the conference. The heads of the Big Ten like top academic members more so than those of the SEC and Big 12.

Great post. Lots of reasonable points to consider.

Without a current Big Ten Conference vision statement we do not really know whether or not Cal & Stanford will receive consideration for Big Ten membership in the future--assuming that both Cal & Stanford are still available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

Like the Big 12 wasn’t concerned about Texas and Oklahoma, and the PAC-12 wasn’t concerned about USC and UCLA.

[Anonymous]

The ACC is concerned about losing FSU and Clemson and U Miami.

The ACC is considering expansion in hopes of stopping the desertion and in order, hopefully, to get more money from ESPN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if Stanford University offered to join the Big Ten Conference at a 50% payout forever, there is no value to the Big Ten Conference. Stanford's football value is in its rivalry relationship with Notre Dame.

Maybe Stanford could try being an independent for a year or two rather than dropping its football program, but there just do not appear to be any other economically viable options for Stanford football. And Cal football is in a worse position than Stanford football.

Stanford because they are Stanford would not take anything less than a full payout. Anything less damages the overall brand.

Do you realize that not even the University of Washington and the University of Oregon will be receiving full share payouts during their first 6 or 7 years in the Big Ten Conference ? And Washington & Oregon are much more valuable football brands than is Stanford.

I do and it is why you do not see Stanford begging to join.

ACC has no half share.

Are you referring to the Big Ten Conference ? Stanford definitely wanted to get into the Big Ten Conference and was aware that no Pac-12 member would receive a full share payout during the remaining 6 or 7 years of the current media rights contract. U Washington & U oregon did not receive full payout offers under the current contract.

ACC has any type of share that it wants to create in conjunction with ESPN. You may be confusing the ACC with the Big 12 Conference's stipulation that all members--old andnew--receive the same payout.

[Anonymous]

Reports are that the new President of Stanford University was very upset (furious) that Stanford was not given an offer to join the Big Ten Conference.

Understandable as this could lead to a major change in Stanford University's culture--which places a high value on athletics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FSU may have engaged the services of an investment banker (JP Morgan Chase) and a private equity (PE firm Sixth Street) firm to raise money as well as to have access to sufficient capital to first make a settlement offer and to have a sufficient show of capital to fund an expensive court battle (which is a great & often effective settlement strategy).

Agree with the first part but there is no way there will be investor money to fund this lawsuit. They will fund a settlement. The outcome is not good. You could not get anyone to fund -- except alums and even they don't have that kind of cash.

Agree, but a show of force is often enough to get folks to the table and engage on a reasonable level regarding a settlement.

A show of force? If FSU offers 1.2 billion it will be considered. If they want to borrow it or sell their rights to Wall Street for the money nobody cares. Still might not be agreed to.

Some of us deal in the real world where business decisions typically involve some degree of bargaining and compromise while others may choose a hard-headed fight to the death type approach.

sigh. You are playing checkers. Chess is the game. What do the ACC schools that can't go anywhere want? It is not money. Duke and BC are loaded. What they want is a power conference. In other words they do not want the dollars -- they want the conference. So go ahead and sue us. You can't move until the litigation is over and appeals are over. No conference would touch you. Best case you sue and three years later you can move because you won. But three years from now there may be no slots. You will be screwed. The ACC schools that can't get anywhere else are not going to be reasonable. Why would they. They have you over a barrel. You can't give them what they want. The ACC has to either expand or get taken by the SEC and Big10.

BC and Duke should be smart enough to know that the ACC is no longer a power conference. There are only two of those - the Big and SEC. It is the ACC playing checkers. They are looking to add Cal and Stanford because of academics. The Big who talks a good game of valuing academics just added Oregon and WAS over these schools. The Big 12 even passed on them. So the ACC is looking to add sloppy thirds all because the President's of these schools are enamored with their academics. The fact that they are even considering them shows the majority of these schools are not concerned about being in a power conference. It is also clear that they are not remotely concerned about FSU or any one else leaving.

Like the Big 12 wasn’t concerned about Texas and Oklahoma, and the PAC-12 wasn’t concerned about USC and UCLA.

Big 12 and BIG both passed on Cal and Stanford

Big 12 only added, UCF, Houston, etc... AFTER Texas and Oklahoma left. They never would have added those schools if they thought it would help push Texas and Oklahoma out the door. If the ACC adds Cal and Stanford, this will help push FSU and others out the door.