Why is ante bellum racist?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

At least some of the people who do it say there is no racist intent. One is on this thread. Are you saying everyone who says that is lying?

I actually think she’s being honest with us and lying to herself.

[Anonymous]

Lying about what?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

At least some of the people who do it say there is no racist intent. One is on this thread. Are you saying everyone who says that is lying?

I actually think she’s being honest with us and lying to herself.

Why would you think that? If someone is not thinking of slaves when they pretend to be a weathy white antebellum Southerner, do you think that secretly they actually must be thinking of slaves simply because that's what you would think of?

Have you ever been to the Renaissance fair? If you have been, did you think that 90% of the people alive at the time were peasants constantly living on the edge of starvation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like the people on here that are offended by the word antebellum only refer to it in the context of parties and plantations. Fine. These are “bad”.

But I’m still going to refer to my parents house as antebellum because it predates the civil war, and refer to certain pieces of art and literature as antebellum. Sorry the word itself is NOT offensive. It simply means pre-war. If you see that word to mean 1860s crinoline dresses and plantation culture you are either woefully uneducated or willfully ignorant. Or both.

I agree. Often people use this word when glamourizing the pre-war south, which is why it has a negative connotation. And this is exactly the context of the use in the OP.

It is definitely possible and appropriate to use the word antebellum in historical context without glamourizing plantations and slavery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

Because we (Americans) are still living with the fallout from that era. Your neighbors, your kids friends’ parents, your coworker you have coffee with - all these people’s lives (and yours) have been shaped by the “ideals” of that time. You cannot separate the pretty dresses and the parties from what the plantation was all about. It is not just a historical artifact. It affects the wounds in our country today.

If you wanted to romanticize medieval Europe or the Japanese empire or the Scottish-English wars, have at. Those periods shaped history (like all periods do) but not as viscerally for your fellow countrymen and women as the antebellum south does. To fetishize that period is to say that you ignore or don’t care about it’s effects on people around you today. Which makes you seem clueless and racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

Because we (Americans) are still living with the fallout from that era. Your neighbors, your kids friends’ parents, your coworker you have coffee with - all these people’s lives (and yours) have been shaped by the “ideals” of that time. You cannot separate the pretty dresses and the parties from what the plantation was all about. It is not just a historical artifact. It affects the wounds in our country today.

If you wanted to romanticize medieval Europe or the Japanese empire or the Scottish-English wars, have at. Those periods shaped history (like all periods do) but not as viscerally for your fellow countrymen and women as the antebellum south does. To fetishize that period is to say that you ignore or don’t care about it’s effects on people around you today. Which makes you seem clueless and racist.

Congratulations. That's the best possible answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

At least some of the people who do it say there is no racist intent. One is on this thread. Are you saying everyone who says that is lying?

Having gone to a Southern university where fraternities held "Old South" balls, I never saw one that didn't involve some level of racism. Either they were glorifying the plantation and the confederacy, or they occasionally made straight up slave jokes. I never once saw the ball involve people dressed as abolitionists or union soldiers. Never saw any black people at these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

Because we (Americans) are still living with the fallout from that era. Your neighbors, your kids friends’ parents, your coworker you have coffee with - all these people’s lives (and yours) have been shaped by the “ideals” of that time. You cannot separate the pretty dresses and the parties from what the plantation was all about. It is not just a historical artifact. It affects the wounds in our country today.

If you wanted to romanticize medieval Europe or the Japanese empire or the Scottish-English wars, have at. Those periods shaped history (like all periods do) but not as viscerally for your fellow countrymen and women as the antebellum south does. To fetishize that period is to say that you ignore or don’t care about it’s effects on people around you today. Which makes you seem clueless and racist.

But the fallout is so profound because the slaves were of different color. If they came from a different continent, we wouldn’t have all the racial tensions that exist today, right? So maybe you are ascribing slavery a much bigger impact and the reality is that people of different ethnicities don’t really want to live next to each other and would much rather live in homogeneous communities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

Because we (Americans) are still living with the fallout from that era. Your neighbors, your kids friends’ parents, your coworker you have coffee with - all these people’s lives (and yours) have been shaped by the “ideals” of that time. You cannot separate the pretty dresses and the parties from what the plantation was all about. It is not just a historical artifact. It affects the wounds in our country today.

If you wanted to romanticize medieval Europe or the Japanese empire or the Scottish-English wars, have at. Those periods shaped history (like all periods do) but not as viscerally for your fellow countrymen and women as the antebellum south does. To fetishize that period is to say that you ignore or don’t care about it’s effects on people around you today. Which makes you seem clueless and racist.

Congratulations. That's the best possible answer.

+1 Very well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

Because we (Americans) are still living with the fallout from that era. Your neighbors, your kids friends’ parents, your coworker you have coffee with - all these people’s lives (and yours) have been shaped by the “ideals” of that time. You cannot separate the pretty dresses and the parties from what the plantation was all about. It is not just a historical artifact. It affects the wounds in our country today.

If you wanted to romanticize medieval Europe or the Japanese empire or the Scottish-English wars, have at. Those periods shaped history (like all periods do) but not as viscerally for your fellow countrymen and women as the antebellum south does. To fetishize that period is to say that you ignore or don’t care about it’s effects on people around you today. Which makes you seem clueless and racist.

But the fallout is so profound because the slaves were of different color. If they came from a different continent, we wouldn’t have all the racial tensions that exist today, right? So maybe you are ascribing slavery a much bigger impact and the reality is that people of different ethnicities don’t really want to live next to each other and would much rather live in homogeneous communities?

You write as though you think the slave trade just happened to involve different races. Treating another race as “other,” was a crucial part of Whites embracing the American institution of slavery. It’s easier to enslave and subjugate someone who doesn’t look like your own family.

As to the bolded part of your post...WTF? Africans didn’t choose to be enslaved and brought here, but slave owners willingly paid good money to buy slaves, which they considered valuable property. Racial tensions in America are not the result of different ethnicities buying houses next door to each other.

Are you new to the US?

[Anonymous]

OP is a master troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Dob't kmow if I really need an explicit disclaimer for a party, but if anyone asked, I would give them one. I personally don't feel I need to strongly condemn the horrors of the past every time I watch a movie or dress up in a costume. Sorry, I just don't. I remember Gone with the Wind quite well. Yes, there are things that are painful to watch. But all the more reason to watch it. Horrible as it is, it is who we are. Humans have done horrible things and we still do horrible things. Hiding from these things will not change them. And wearing a costume does not mean you endorse them.

Please, hold an Eagle’s Nest themed party. You seem to really enjoy going for it with the offensive stuff, and it’s such a weird hill to die on. Why celebrate something that’s well understood to be terrible. I used to be a BIG GWTW fan, like had paper dolls, the cookbook, all that stuff. And I believed some of the horrible stuff that Margaret Mitchell wrote and implied.

If you enjoy dressing up (and I have to say, I look askance at adults who feel the need to cosplay. It’s sad), pick another era that is not a de facto celebration of the enslavement of millions.

Yes, I support everyone's right to free expression which includes allowing people to dress in silly costumes and be offensive. I don't support this because I want to do it myself, I support it because if mere offensiveness becames the standard for what is impermissible, then everything becomes subject to attack by moral busybodies. I hold free expression to be a higher good than not being offensive.

Great. You have the right to be offensive. That was never in doubt. First Amendment. Got it. That wasn't the OP's question, though. Their question is about the intent and whether that intent is racist or not.

At least some of the people who do it say there is no racist intent. One is on this thread. Are you saying everyone who says that is lying?

Having gone to a Southern university where fraternities held "Old South" balls, I never saw one that didn't involve some level of racism. Either they were glorifying the plantation and the confederacy, or they occasionally made straight up slave jokes. I never once saw the ball involve people dressed as abolitionists or union soldiers. Never saw any black people at these.

I'm pushing back on the idea that offensiveness is racism and that only a racist person would do something offensive, or defend someone's right to be offensive. I think that's an impossible standard for racism and it results in performative antiracism, where we perseverate on appearances rather than intent or actions. That doesn't mean anyone
should purposively do offensive things, but being offensive is at a different level of immorality than being racist, and I think it is important to keep those levels distinct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

It’s not racist OP. It will offend some people, but antebellum parties aren’t racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that asking this question invites all kinds of criticism. I am asking sincerely. Help me understand why wearing pretty dresses to a party is racist?

Thank you.

It’s not racist OP. It will offend some people, but antebellum parties aren’t racist.

Yeah, they are, but thanks for offering the racist’s opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People who romanticize that time period (myself included) do it because we enjoy the ambiance and aesthetics of it. The fate of slaves is usually the last thing on my mind. Actually, it’s not on my mind at all.
I just wish i was born back then into a wealthy family.

And this is what makes this attitude racist, ignorant and callous.

You are glamorizing the ambiance and aesthetics of a period of time that included great cruelty and horrific abuse. You are appreciating the style and culture of those who inflicted great injustice and abuses on a large population and you callously ignore the effect that your reverence has on those around you. You realize that dressing up in antebellum clothes makes those who are descended from slaves feel horrible and yet you don't even care. When pointed out, you are not apologetic, you just keep reiterating how indifferent you are to how your actions and romanticizing the period incense and aggravate others.

That's racist. The fact that you don't care about the effect on others and how you don't think at all about the slaves and how wearing those clothes affects those around you, is racist. And you perfectly echo the people you are dressing up as. They also didn't care about the slaves. In fact, they didn't even consider them people, they considered them property, and were as indifferent to their feelings as they were to the feelings of cows or sheep.