Any word from Arlington?

[Anonymous]

The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

Would love to hear what our parents would choose given the choice.

1) DPL (GAL)
2) ECNL
3) EDP
4) USYS

I think every league offers different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

If they encourage high school that rules out a season with Maryland - PA - NJ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are Arlington boys doing?

I think the Arlington decision is complex because they have to figure out both boys and girls. And the best option for each isn’t the same. Either the boys go MLS and the girls go GAL (better for boys, worse for girls) or both go ECNL (better for girls, worse for boys). If MLS isn’t an option for the boys then I bet the whole club goes ECNL. Richmond United and VDA are campaigning to get Arlington boys to go ECNL, which might override Mclean and BRYC trying to veto ECNL on the girls side. Many moving pieces.

Amazing how girls ECNL parents think their teams and mid Atlantic division is so strong but the boys mid Atlantic which includes all former DA teams except DCU is so weak. Literally no self awareness whatsoever.

Amazing how girls DA parents bashed ECNL relentlessly but are now clambering to get in. And when ECNL parents mock them shamelessly here, they lash out with the same old trope.

I’m not so sure this is true. It seems that there is an ECNL driven campaign here to make the board think that people who are deep into recruiting will switch clubs. I don’t buy it for a second. They want to kill the new league before it gets off the ground. Someone who is deep into the recruiting phase has a lot more to fear from switching clubs into an environment where they may not even play to staying with their current teams where they have chemistry and showcase properly.

Your kid won’t make it in college off the bench if she needs chemistry to make her look good. Any top player can adjust and adjust fast to who she plays with.

I think what people have been saying is they are confident that they would land on a ECNL roster and displace a kid. What they aren’t sure about is if the change will even be necessary.

My kid plays ECNL in the DMV and I agree with you. The talent of the top 6-8 at FCV and Arlington impress. They can and will replace some of the starting 11 in ECNL. I for one want the better players. Why? Speed of play, reading the field and top training speeds that will help get my child ready for college. Skill pushes the skilled it’s just that simple.

The top players in DA are also going to pick the BEST ECNL teams first. FCV kids are not going to be interested in a bad VDA or Loudoun team.

Sounds good! Try BRYC or Mclean then.

I do agree the best DA players will look to the better ECNL teams first and depending on the age group can be a lot of different clubs, below is the top nova team in each age group (used league standings)
07- Loudoun
06- VDA
05- Mclean
04- VDA
03- BRYC
02-Mclean

VDA 04

Mikey coaching VDA 04. They will be good

+1000 Yep! Can’t wait.

If they can add players.

They already had a few BRYC players come to practices.

I doubt it. Mikey likes to recruit - but he is not stupid enough to have kids from another ECNL club at practices before may 1.

Never happened.. just another jealous soccer dad trying his hardest to stir the pot. Get a life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

Would love to hear what our parents would choose given the choice.

1) DPL (GAL)
2) ECNL
3) EDP
4) USYS

I think every league offers different things.

My choices for my recruiting-age girl player would be:
(1) ECNL
(2) switch to an ECNL club
(3) if 1 and 2 fail, DPL/GAL with lots of ID camps once those start up again

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

Would love to hear what our parents would choose given the choice.

1) DPL (GAL)
2) ECNL
3) EDP
4) USYS

I think every league offers different things.

My choices for my recruiting-age girl player would be:
(1) ECNL
(2) switch to an ECNL club
(3) if 1 and 2 fail, DPL/GAL with lots of ID camps once those start up again

Arlington should get ECNL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Development Player League (DPL) is designed to expand the Girls Development Academy (DA) player pool for participating clubs. The league creates a highly professional training environment and competitive model for aspiring DA players, bridging the gap between club soccer and Development Academy soccer.

The DPL provides a clear pathway for players who show the potential to make the jump to the DA level of play. The DPL teams will offer players who excel to have the opportunity to be called up as a Development Player for their respective DA teams. This structure provides an expanded pool of aspiring DA players with more exposure to the DA training model and level of play, while allowing them the time they need to develop as well as offering the flexibility to play high school soccer.

Founded on the ideology of the full DA program, the DPL provides a development structure that focuses on playing more meaningful games with highly professional game day environment, more training, high level coaching, development before winning attitude, and great exposure in major college showcases events.

Would love to hear what our parents would choose given the choice.

1) DPL (GAL)
2) ECNL
3) EDP
4) USYS

I think every league offers different things.

My choices for my recruiting-age girl player would be:
(1) ECNL
(2) switch to an ECNL club
(3) if 1 and 2 fail, DPL/GAL with lots of ID camps once those start up again

Arlington should get ECNL

They would have it if they went "all in". With out the boys program ECNL does not need them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado for the boys. Anybody wanna see second prize? Second prize's a set of steak knives for the girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado for the boys. Anybody wanna see second prize? Second prize's a set of steak knives for the girls.

That's not however the fault of Arlington. It would be absolutely wrong for them to make any decision for either girls or boys that was in the interest of the other group. And for ECNL clubs (BRYC, McLean) to demand that they do such a thing is bad behavior by those clubs - not Arlington. Arlington is applying separately to the best league for boys and the best league for girls. That is in the best interest of their players. It's not especially noble since it's in their own best interest too.

BRYC and McLean on the other hand are not putting the kids first. Neither their own kids on existing rosters who may get displaced, nor the Arlington kids. They're putting themselves - the club and management - first. So they're the people who are acting selfishly and you should be mad at.

I don't think Arlington would necessarily act any better if the roles were reversed. But they're not, so I don't think it's fair to blame Arlington.

In any case - probably best for the blood pressure to wait and see what actually gets worked out before we all blow a gasket .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

My guess is that there is currently discussion around what to do for the other age groups and whether to admit a handful of additional clubs.

Right now there is no U16 team, and basically EDP runs a (I think separate) league just for the DA clubs and their U16 teams compete in that. My guess is that the clubs will want to do that for U13 and U14 as well.

I suspect one holdup is DC United trying to decide what teams they will even have. It's quite possible they will just drop U13, U14 and U16 teams altogether. And if they drop those teams then the league would likely need to be expanded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

I thought the release said u15 will include good U14s and U17 will include good U16s. They are consolidating the talent from four age groups into two teams. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t have other teams for each age group but it sounds like the MLS clubs have something else in mind.

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

My guess is that there is currently discussion around what to do for the other age groups and whether to admit a handful of additional clubs.

Right now there is no U16 team, and basically EDP runs a (I think separate) league just for the DA clubs and their U16 teams compete in that. My guess is that the clubs will want to do that for U13 and U14 as well.

I suspect one holdup is DC United trying to decide what teams they will even have. It's quite possible they will just drop U13, U14 and U16 teams altogether. And if they drop those teams then the league would likely need to be expanded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado for the boys. Anybody wanna see second prize? Second prize's a set of steak knives for the girls.

That's not however the fault of Arlington. It would be absolutely wrong for them to make any decision for either girls or boys that was in the interest of the other group. And for ECNL clubs (BRYC, McLean) to demand that they do such a thing is bad behavior by those clubs - not Arlington. Arlington is applying separately to the best league for boys and the best league for girls. That is in the best interest of their players. It's not especially noble since it's in their own best interest too.

BRYC and McLean on the other hand are not putting the kids first. Neither their own kids on existing rosters who may get displaced, nor the Arlington kids. They're putting themselves - the club and management - first. So they're the people who are acting selfishly and you should be mad at.

I don't think Arlington would necessarily act any better if the roles were reversed. But they're not, so I don't think it's fair to blame Arlington.

In any case - probably best for the blood pressure to wait and see what actually gets worked out before we all blow a gasket .

So Arlington will be in two new leagues....that’s a risky place to be. There is no guarantee with a new and coronavirus. Better to take one sure thing(ecnl girls) and enter the boys in a less risky but dominate position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/04/18/mls-youth-league-reaches-out-da-colleagues-its-not-time-exclude-it-s-time-include

Just spoke to Fred Lipka and he reiterated this point; says every DA club will be included in the new MLS youth league. Stability is a priority right now. More to come... https://twitter.com/cboehm/status/1250954562959220738 …

Same article: “ So if there are changes, it will be minor changes and all the members are going to be secured. We’re confident that the kids are going to be able to find another competition to play in if they want to keep on the same path.”. This will be for 15 / 17 only. Not down to youth ages. They don’t have infrastructure or money to do so. And two tiered with MLS in top bracket. Goal will still be to pull best players to MLS teams.

For the club this league does not sound really attractive. It’s a lot hard to sell to parents and really limits rosters when compared to the existing system. Also if you are not a MLS team how secure are you in this new league?

We will see what it means. Nobody needs to decide now. The question is really what the objective for parents, kids, and clubs are, and whether this will meet it versus other things already available or easily obtainable. Let’s assume you are not in Tier One. Who are you playing if Bethesda and Armour are in Tier One and VDA and Richmond are gone? Even if Bethesda and Armour are available, who else would you play? Are you traveling to PA and NJ to play teams? Are the remaining teams likely to be better than local teams you could play (or local, Maryland, NJ teams you could theoretically play in EDP)? If so, do you need anything that is not already available?

Boys getting MLS League

In 2 age groups?

As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado for the boys. Anybody wanna see second prize? Second prize's a set of steak knives for the girls.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves with the el dorado. Or the steak knives. And I am not sure the boys would view ecnl as even steak knives.