UNC vs UVA (OOS)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The anti-UVA vibe on DCUM is very interesting. I'm wondering why...

Is it envy from UMD boosters because UMD is not considered, overall, as prestigious as UVA or ranked as high? They believe UVA is overrated and UMD is underrated. So putting UVA down serves their cause.
Is it superiority from the Ivy/SLAC crowd who wants to keep UVA in it's place as "just another flagship public school", and not worthy of consideration in comparison to their smaller and more intellectual institutions?
Is it sour grapes from folks who didn't get into UVA?
Is it because UVA alums are annoying and have an overinflated opinion of themselves and the school?

I'm trying to think of another school that is similar to UVA that gets put down as much as UVA on this site. And I can't find one. The closest might be Georgetown. Lots of Georgetown hate on DCUM as well.

It's an interesting phenomenon.

It is a reaction to the over-the top boosters. I'd be happy to side with the UVA boosters when they are criticized by the elitist, Ivy-only crowd, but then they turn around and try to act superior to the other excellent state flagships. I'm not sure why they can't just acknowledge that there are lots of fantastic schools in the world.

I agree with you, PP. There are a lot of great schools in the world and specifically in this area. It is wonderful that OP's daughter has such a wonderful choice to make. I don't think she can go wrong with either one.

I am the poster who posted a page or two back about touring last month with my cousin's kid. I was prepared for the kid to be wowed and awed by UVA, not the least because I am an alum and have always spoken highly of it, and I was upset and unhappy by how shabby it looked on a gorgeous sunny day. Then we got to UNC the next day and it looked beautiful and pristine on the most dismal rainy day. It certainly changed my perspective.

I usually am the first here on this site to defend UVA when it gets slammed by some pissy Ivy person but I think we UVA alum need to get our act together and start holding our school and ourselves more accountable. There is no reason for the school to look as bad as it does and, frankly, some of the entitled behaviors that I saw when we were there were pretty dismaying. The only way we can get better is to acknowledge that there is room for growth, and then to make an effort to change for the better.

Back to the subject at hand. UVA is a great school. UNC is a great school. OP's kid has a good but hard choice to make. I congratulate her on the hard work and effort it took for her to get to this place and I hope she ends up at the school that is the best fit for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you look at student surveys and responses in places like Princeton Review and Niche, research-intensive universities generally get much lower satisfaction scores for teaching and student-teacher interactions. Research universities also use adjuncts and lecturers in addition to TAs, so not sure what your point is there. The University of California system did a time study on how professors spend their time and it came down to about 1/3 research, 1/3 graduate education, and 1/3 undergraduate education. So even though undergraduates have reduced in-state tuition there, the conclusion was they still subsidize research and graduate study with their tuition based on the attention they get (or don't get to put it another way).

It's true that research professors will not spend as much time with undergrads as in undergrad-focused universities. But ask yourself again: why do students clamor to get into Harvard, but don't care as much about Williams?

Fact of the matter is, research universities will have more academically accomplished professors. This can be very good for high-achieving students because they can leverage these opportunities by doing research for professors and get recommendation letters from renowned professors in the field that they want to go to grad school for. This is especially true in the sciences where large lecture halls don't matter as much (not much in-class discussion going on)

For middle-of-the-road students, indeed they can get easily lost in research universities. Those students probably have a better time with smaller classes.

Research universities may have more research accomplished professors. This doesn't mean they 1) teach undergraduates much 2) care much about or are assessed on undergraduate teaching or 3) teach undergraduates well. Princeton, the top ranked school in USNWR does a good job of research (albeit on a more limited scale than say Michigan), and of having good teaching, student research opportunities (which are usually distinct from externally sponsored R&D), and capstone programs. Many other research universities suck in these areas.

Any good research university will have professors teaching students. It's true that they may not care much for it or teach very well, but thats not the advantage they provide. The advantage they provide is deep knowledge in their expertise and research opportunities outside of class. For bright students that can more than handle the class-workload on their own, the extra research opportunities is a huge advantage for medical and grad school. Middle-of-the-road students who are not interested in research and may need more help on classwork (aka homework assigned in class) will have a harder time in research universities. I have said this multiple times in this thread.

Something to note between UNC and UVA is that while UNC is generally considered a much better research institution, UVA isn't necessarily the "undergrad-focused, LAC" environment that many try to portray it as. It's still a large public university thats only smaller than UNC by about 1000-2000 students. You still have large class sizes, still have students competing for attention from a single professor, still have TA's, and on top of that the TA's (who are generally grad students) may not be as good as at UNC does more/better research => better grad students flock there.

What UVA does have is probably a slightly better undergrad student population because of the in-state ratios and NOVA students.

Many students that go on to medical school or graduate school do research. But it is actually usually professor-supervised individual research. That is often easier to get at schools with more undergraduate focus. You can get that at a LAC or other undergraduate focused school. Many of the top STEM PHD producing schools are LACs. And look at the USNWR rankings of undergraduate research possibilities: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs You see all types of schools.

No, a lot of the undergraduate research is working on as a research assistant on a research professor's project. If students want to do independent research, large research universities have those as well - its a course students can sign up for.

The vast majority of universities on that list are national research universities, and more specifically, very internationally renowned research universities: MIT, Cal Tech, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Duke, etc. etc.

I'm sure a lot of students from LACs go to graduate school. One advantage of LAC is that you can make close relationships with professors and therefore get a very good recommendation. But note that this is a result of LACs being very small, not necessarily them being LAC, "undergrad-focused" institutions. A student at Caltech or MIT which are sized 2000-4000 students can also get very close relationships with their professors, given they are capable and take the opportunities available.

I am not considering Caltech and MIT. They are special cases. I am just noting that schools like Elon, Wooster, Davidson, William & Mary, Amherst, Carleton, Harvey Mudd, Brown, Williams, Allegheny, Hope, Swarthmore, Agnes Scott, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, Boston College, Grinnel, Furman, and Pomona are ranked above UNC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you look at student surveys and responses in places like Princeton Review and Niche, research-intensive universities generally get much lower satisfaction scores for teaching and student-teacher interactions. Research universities also use adjuncts and lecturers in addition to TAs, so not sure what your point is there. The University of California system did a time study on how professors spend their time and it came down to about 1/3 research, 1/3 graduate education, and 1/3 undergraduate education. So even though undergraduates have reduced in-state tuition there, the conclusion was they still subsidize research and graduate study with their tuition based on the attention they get (or don't get to put it another way).

It's true that research professors will not spend as much time with undergrads as in undergrad-focused universities. But ask yourself again: why do students clamor to get into Harvard, but don't care as much about Williams?

Fact of the matter is, research universities will have more academically accomplished professors. This can be very good for high-achieving students because they can leverage these opportunities by doing research for professors and get recommendation letters from renowned professors in the field that they want to go to grad school for. This is especially true in the sciences where large lecture halls don't matter as much (not much in-class discussion going on)

For middle-of-the-road students, indeed they can get easily lost in research universities. Those students probably have a better time with smaller classes.

Research universities may have more research accomplished professors. This doesn't mean they 1) teach undergraduates much 2) care much about or are assessed on undergraduate teaching or 3) teach undergraduates well. Princeton, the top ranked school in USNWR does a good job of research (albeit on a more limited scale than say Michigan), and of having good teaching, student research opportunities (which are usually distinct from externally sponsored R&D), and capstone programs. Many other research universities suck in these areas.

Any good research university will have professors teaching students. It's true that they may not care much for it or teach very well, but thats not the advantage they provide. The advantage they provide is deep knowledge in their expertise and research opportunities outside of class. For bright students that can more than handle the class-workload on their own, the extra research opportunities is a huge advantage for medical and grad school. Middle-of-the-road students who are not interested in research and may need more help on classwork (aka homework assigned in class) will have a harder time in research universities. I have said this multiple times in this thread.

Something to note between UNC and UVA is that while UNC is generally considered a much better research institution, UVA isn't necessarily the "undergrad-focused, LAC" environment that many try to portray it as. It's still a large public university thats only smaller than UNC by about 1000-2000 students. You still have large class sizes, still have students competing for attention from a single professor, still have TA's, and on top of that the TA's (who are generally grad students) may not be as good as at UNC does more/better research => better grad students flock there.

What UVA does have is probably a slightly better undergrad student population because of the in-state ratios and NOVA students.

Many students that go on to medical school or graduate school do research. But it is actually usually professor-supervised individual research. That is often easier to get at schools with more undergraduate focus. You can get that at a LAC or other undergraduate focused school. Many of the top STEM PHD producing schools are LACs. And look at the USNWR rankings of undergraduate research possibilities: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs You see all types of schools.

No, a lot of the undergraduate research is working on as a research assistant on a research professor's project. If students want to do independent research, large research universities have those as well - its a course students can sign up for.

The vast majority of universities on that list are national research universities, and more specifically, very internationally renowned research universities: MIT, Cal Tech, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Duke, etc. etc.

I'm sure a lot of students from LACs go to graduate school. One advantage of LAC is that you can make close relationships with professors and therefore get a very good recommendation. But note that this is a result of LACs being very small, not necessarily them being LAC, "undergrad-focused" institutions. A student at Caltech or MIT which are sized 2000-4000 students can also get very close relationships with their professors, given they are capable and take the opportunities available.

I am not considering Caltech and MIT. They are special cases. I am just noting that schools like Elon, Wooster, Davidson, William & Mary, Amherst, Carleton, Harvey Mudd, Brown, Williams, Allegheny, Hope, Swarthmore, Agnes Scott, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, Boston College, Grinnel, Furman, and Pomona are ranked above UNC.

!?!?!?!?
Boston College is #37 in US News National University rankings, UNC is #29
Brown and Dartmouth do outrank UNC, although I don't see the relevance of bringing them up.

The other schools are not ranked as national universities, but are on a separate LACs ranking. But if one were to make a comparison, a few might outrank UNC (Harvey Mudd, Pomona) but FFS Furman and Agnes Scott - and Hope! - would certainly not. You have let the SLAC kool aid go to your head.

[Anonymous]

But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

ARGH. LOOK AT THE RIGHT LIST! UVA has been a top public university No, 2 or 3 for the last 27 years, always above Michigan and way above UNC. Last year was an anomoly because USN&WR decided incorrectly to include Pell Grant participation, which the universities have no control over due to demographics. USN&WR is correcting that. So you have UVA at no. 2, 3, 4 and UNC down at 6 for public universities. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC without a doubt and regardless of the cost differential.

Have you toured the campuses? UNC wins hands down. The campus is beautiful and well-kept. There is a lot of money being poured into it and you can see it everywhere on campus. Whereas UVA is really run down and it has a strong hard-luck vibe now that it didn't have back when I was a student there. I wish I could say that UVA has done a good job keeping up appearances but it just hasn't. Enough said.

There also is a lot to be said for the easy drive to UNC. A straight shot down 95 to 84 on nice straight interstate highways. It is pretty much a piece of cake.

Although in this area there are a lot of UVA supporters it is my opinion that UNC has a better national/international profile and name recognition.

UVA’s campus is not “really run down”. WTF?

Have you been there recently? The last time I was there was in the beginning of March on a beautiful sunny day. The campus looked horrible. I mean it always has looked bad (and I am a UVA alum) but it looked even worse than normal. It reeked of "I've given up." The next day we went to UNC and it was a really stinky rainy day but the campus was gorgeous. The green space was well-groomed the facilities were well-maintained, and it looked about 1000 times better than UVA. We were at both schools showing a cousin's kid around. At that point we didn't know he would get in to both but it was pretty clear after those two days that UNC was going to be his first choice just based on the campus feel. Coupled with the fact that it will give him a better graduate school path, it is a no-brainer.

Your sense of beauty is a little off the mainstream to say the least if you are not a troll.
UVA is multiple times richer than UNC in terms of endowment, you think it can't keep up its world class UNESCO campus? While UVA has the Jefferson Rotunda and The Lawn, UNC has an Old Well, which are typical symbolic scenaries of each school. For those who could not visit the campus, you should already got a sense by just looking at some online pictures that these two schools each got a campus obviously in different caliber.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you look at student surveys and responses in places like Princeton Review and Niche, research-intensive universities generally get much lower satisfaction scores for teaching and student-teacher interactions. Research universities also use adjuncts and lecturers in addition to TAs, so not sure what your point is there. The University of California system did a time study on how professors spend their time and it came down to about 1/3 research, 1/3 graduate education, and 1/3 undergraduate education. So even though undergraduates have reduced in-state tuition there, the conclusion was they still subsidize research and graduate study with their tuition based on the attention they get (or don't get to put it another way).

It's true that research professors will not spend as much time with undergrads as in undergrad-focused universities. But ask yourself again: why do students clamor to get into Harvard, but don't care as much about Williams?

Fact of the matter is, research universities will have more academically accomplished professors. This can be very good for high-achieving students because they can leverage these opportunities by doing research for professors and get recommendation letters from renowned professors in the field that they want to go to grad school for. This is especially true in the sciences where large lecture halls don't matter as much (not much in-class discussion going on)

For middle-of-the-road students, indeed they can get easily lost in research universities. Those students probably have a better time with smaller classes.

Research universities may have more research accomplished professors. This doesn't mean they 1) teach undergraduates much 2) care much about or are assessed on undergraduate teaching or 3) teach undergraduates well. Princeton, the top ranked school in USNWR does a good job of research (albeit on a more limited scale than say Michigan), and of having good teaching, student research opportunities (which are usually distinct from externally sponsored R&D), and capstone programs. Many other research universities suck in these areas.

Any good research university will have professors teaching students. It's true that they may not care much for it or teach very well, but thats not the advantage they provide. The advantage they provide is deep knowledge in their expertise and research opportunities outside of class. For bright students that can more than handle the class-workload on their own, the extra research opportunities is a huge advantage for medical and grad school. Middle-of-the-road students who are not interested in research and may need more help on classwork (aka homework assigned in class) will have a harder time in research universities. I have said this multiple times in this thread.

Something to note between UNC and UVA is that while UNC is generally considered a much better research institution, UVA isn't necessarily the "undergrad-focused, LAC" environment that many try to portray it as. It's still a large public university thats only smaller than UNC by about 1000-2000 students. You still have large class sizes, still have students competing for attention from a single professor, still have TA's, and on top of that the TA's (who are generally grad students) may not be as good as at UNC does more/better research => better grad students flock there.

What UVA does have is probably a slightly better undergrad student population because of the in-state ratios and NOVA students.

Many students that go on to medical school or graduate school do research. But it is actually usually professor-supervised individual research. That is often easier to get at schools with more undergraduate focus. You can get that at a LAC or other undergraduate focused school. Many of the top STEM PHD producing schools are LACs. And look at the USNWR rankings of undergraduate research possibilities: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs You see all types of schools.

No, a lot of the undergraduate research is working on as a research assistant on a research professor's project. If students want to do independent research, large research universities have those as well - its a course students can sign up for.

The vast majority of universities on that list are national research universities, and more specifically, very internationally renowned research universities: MIT, Cal Tech, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Duke, etc. etc.

I'm sure a lot of students from LACs go to graduate school. One advantage of LAC is that you can make close relationships with professors and therefore get a very good recommendation. But note that this is a result of LACs being very small, not necessarily them being LAC, "undergrad-focused" institutions. A student at Caltech or MIT which are sized 2000-4000 students can also get very close relationships with their professors, given they are capable and take the opportunities available.

I am not considering Caltech and MIT. They are special cases. I am just noting that schools like Elon, Wooster, Davidson, William & Mary, Amherst, Carleton, Harvey Mudd, Brown, Williams, Allegheny, Hope, Swarthmore, Agnes Scott, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, Boston College, Grinnel, Furman, and Pomona are ranked above UNC.

!?!?!?!?
Boston College is #37 in US News National University rankings, UNC is #29
Brown and Dartmouth do outrank UNC, although I don't see the relevance of bringing them up.

The other schools are not ranked as national universities, but are on a separate LACs ranking. But if one were to make a comparison, a few might outrank UNC (Harvey Mudd, Pomona) but FFS Furman and Agnes Scott - and Hope! - would certainly not. You have let the SLAC kool aid go to your head.

Read carefully. It is from the USNWR ranking of undergraduate research programs. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

ARGH. LOOK AT THE RIGHT LIST! UVA has been a top public university No, 2 or 3 for the last 27 years, always above Michigan and way above UNC. Last year was an anomoly because USN&WR decided incorrectly to include Pell Grant participation, which the universities have no control over due to demographics. USN&WR is correcting that. So you have UVA at no. 2, 3, 4 and UNC down at 6 for public universities. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

I was replying to the poster that posted the undergraduate research rankings. Regardless the whole point of what I'm trying to say is that Michigan, UNC, Berkeley, et.al. are world famous research institutions, which provides certain benefits for high-achieving students that UVA, which needs to do more work on research, may not be able to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

ARGH. LOOK AT THE RIGHT LIST! UVA has been a top public university No, 2 or 3 for the last 27 years, always above Michigan and way above UNC. Last year was an anomoly because USN&WR decided incorrectly to include Pell Grant participation, which the universities have no control over due to demographics. USN&WR is correcting that. So you have UVA at no. 2, 3, 4 and UNC down at 6 for public universities. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

I was replying to the poster that posted the undergraduate research rankings. Regardless the whole point of what I'm trying to say is that Michigan, UNC, Berkeley, et.al. are world famous research institutions, which provides certain benefits for high-achieving students that UVA, which needs to do more work on research, may not be able to.

Oh
My
God.

THE OP’S DAUGHTER IS NOT CONSIDERING BERKELEY OR MICHIGAN. Or College of Wooster. Or Elon. She is deciding between UNC and UVA. What those other schools are ranked is completely irrelevant to THIS discussion. If you want to start a thread regarding best undergraduate teaching or research then feel free to do so. Just stop hijacking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

ARGH. LOOK AT THE RIGHT LIST! UVA has been a top public university No, 2 or 3 for the last 27 years, always above Michigan and way above UNC. Last year was an anomoly because USN&WR decided incorrectly to include Pell Grant participation, which the universities have no control over due to demographics. USN&WR is correcting that. So you have UVA at no. 2, 3, 4 and UNC down at 6 for public universities. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Read! The relevant list in question was referenced and was of undergraduate research programs. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs

[Anonymous]

Unless $10K is significant, she should pick the one she feels is the best fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the OP is not considering between UNC and Harvey Mudd/Davidson/Amherst/Williams/Darthmouth/Pomona etc. She's considering between UNC and UVA.

I don't put a lot into USNews rankings, but if you want to go by them: Univ. of Michigan is #7 on that list, Georgia Tech is #8, UC-Berkeley is #21, UNC is #42. UVA is not on the list at all. Generally these 5 schools would be considered peers and DCUM would consider UVA to be better than all other than Berkeley.
Some other interesting schools that are generally considered academically worse than UVA on DCUM but are higher on this list: UT-Austin at #14, UC-Davis at #34, Wisconsin at #34, Michigan State at #44, Texas A&M at #44, Delaware at #44, Rutgers at #50, Central Florida at #50, SUNY #59, Georgia at #59.

Again I don't put much worth on these rankings though. I am talking about UNC entirely from its national/international research reputation.
But again, the average student at UVA is probably slightly more academically talented than UNC because of the in-state ratio, and also North Carolina's Republican legislature has made big funding cuts over the past decade while UVA has pretty much turned into a private-school-type fundraising and has a $10 billion endowment.

ARGH. LOOK AT THE RIGHT LIST! UVA has been a top public university No, 2 or 3 for the last 27 years, always above Michigan and way above UNC. Last year was an anomoly because USN&WR decided incorrectly to include Pell Grant participation, which the universities have no control over due to demographics. USN&WR is correcting that. So you have UVA at no. 2, 3, 4 and UNC down at 6 for public universities. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

I was replying to the poster that posted the undergraduate research rankings. Regardless the whole point of what I'm trying to say is that Michigan, UNC, Berkeley, et.al. are world famous research institutions, which provides certain benefits for high-achieving students that UVA, which needs to do more work on research, may not be able to.

You were trying to argue that UNC is somehow better as an undergraduate institution than UVA because it does more research. I'd argue it is largely irrelevant, and at many schools, it is just a distraction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC without a doubt and regardless of the cost differential.

Have you toured the campuses? UNC wins hands down. The campus is beautiful and well-kept. There is a lot of money being poured into it and you can see it everywhere on campus. Whereas UVA is really run down and it has a strong hard-luck vibe now that it didn't have back when I was a student there. I wish I could say that UVA has done a good job keeping up appearances but it just hasn't. Enough said.

There also is a lot to be said for the easy drive to UNC. A straight shot down 95 to 84 on nice straight interstate highways. It is pretty much a piece of cake.

Although in this area there are a lot of UVA supporters it is my opinion that UNC has a better national/international profile and name recognition.

UVA’s campus is not “really run down”. WTF?

Have you been there recently? The last time I was there was in the beginning of March on a beautiful sunny day. The campus looked horrible. I mean it always has looked bad (and I am a UVA alum) but it looked even worse than normal. It reeked of "I've given up." The next day we went to UNC and it was a really stinky rainy day but the campus was gorgeous. The green space was well-groomed the facilities were well-maintained, and it looked about 1000 times better than UVA. We were at both schools showing a cousin's kid around. At that point we didn't know he would get in to both but it was pretty clear after those two days that UNC was going to be his first choice just based on the campus feel. Coupled with the fact that it will give him a better graduate school path, it is a no-brainer.

Your sense of beauty is a little off the mainstream to say the least if you are not a troll.
UVA is multiple times richer than UNC in terms of endowment, you think it can't keep up its world class UNESCO campus? While UVA has the Jefferson Rotunda and The Lawn, UNC has an Old Well, which are typical symbolic scenaries of each school. For those who could not visit the campus, you should already got a sense by just looking at some online pictures that these two schools each got a campus obviously in different caliber.

Old East is 30 years older than any UVA building. You omitted that. Most endowments are targeted (e.g athletics, medical school, etc.) and likely very little to groundskeeping.

[Anonymous]

Any list where Elon is #4 nationally is highly suspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any list where Elon is #4 nationally is highly suspect.

Well USNWR did it. And you could argue that any list that has Stanford tied with Penn is suspect as well.