immmigrant haters: do you really want to be like Japan?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Well said. The US continues to accept about 1 million legal immigrants every year, and these numbers have continued under Trump. There is no such large scale legal immigration to Japan.

I do think we could increase legal immigration , say, to 1.5 million people a year, but no-one seems to want to discuss this.

OP here. The Democrats want to discuss this. Despite the libel that they want open borders, what their platform ACTUALLY calls for is regularlizing immigration in a way that serves the needs of the economy. Whether that is 500,000 a year or more or less, I don't know.

"What serves the needs of the economy" means different things to different people. There is no need to set up false dilemmas like "let in everyone who wants to" or "be cared for by robots in your old age."

Besides, when you argue for increased inflow of low-skilled migrants, you are basically institutionalizing a perpetual underclass. Businesses love hiring people who work cheaply, have no rights and receive no benefits. I don't know if this is the sort of dependency you want to encourage.

Hey, if you want to talk about the well-being of low-wage workers, I know of a couple of great candiates focusing on that (Warren and Sanders).

What creates a perpetual underclass is when the business establishment of a nation knowingly relies on illegal labor, while Republicans further drive immigrants into the shadow and make them even more vulnerable to exploitation. A cynical person could say that is by design ...

This problem - and its solution - is not tied to any particular candidate. It will persist well past the time when both Trump and Sanders are pushing up daisies. Let go of personalities for a moment.

If your sole argument that low-skilled, low-literacy, poor immigrants are good for the US economy and should be regularized because we rely on them to do the things Americans won't do, do you realize that the whole reason they take jobs Americans won't take is that they have no access to any other jobs? Why would a person who is legally in the country work for less than a native-born American? Why would a person legally in the country take a job that pays crap wages with no benefits?

Yes, they take jobs here because it's a better opportunity - there's nothing unclear about that.

You don't get it. It's only a better job if you compare it with subsistence farming in Guatemala. Once you're legal in the country with access to any job at all, a different set of criteria will come into play. Why would a Guatemalan framer charge less than an American one if both are legal?

I will type it out again because I think you missed it the first time:

Illegal migrants take jobs that Americans won't because they have no access to any other American jobs. Once they have access to ALL American jobs, the kinds of jobs that illegals used to do begin to look much less attractive.

I don't know what your point is. Do you think we should have a permanent underclass of low-skill workers who should never be able to move up?

I think that every society will naturally have an underclass, and there are enough people domestically to fill that need. Some people will move up, some won't. There is no shame in that.

Yes, there are industries that are heavily reliant on illegal migrant labor. That's not the thing you want to encourage - both for the sake of businesses, and for the sake of migrants they exploit. This problem won't be solved by legalizing migrants because legalized migrants won't find these jobs attractive anymore.

That's the ENTIRE point. It's hypocritical to rely on illegal labor on the one hand, and not work to regularize it. Democrats do not want to encourage illegal immigration - they want a rational immigration policy that creates a stable labor force (coupled with labor rights). So now we are veering into other policy differences that go beyond immigration, like minimum wage, health care, unions.

The actions of Democrats in Congress and the words and promises of Democrats running for president totally contradict this statement.

Ok well the words and actions of Republicans show that they hate brown people and Muslims and want to create animus against immigrants as an electoral issue for their white base, and it's working.

See how far that kind of argumentation goes?

Please, try to engage, and get past the slogans. I'd like to THINK you are smarter than that, although I have yet to see much intelligent engagement here. Pretty much the only smart thing I have heard anyone say on this thread is that the wellbeing of workers does not necesarily coincide with the wellbeing of the economy. To which I say -- good point, and Bernie would like to have a word with you!

When Democrats get serious about curbing illegal immigration instead of making it easier for them to get here and stay here - we can talk.
I frankly am not interested in making those already here "legal" until we can ensure that the constant flow coming in will slow incredibly, if not stop altogether.
And, even then, I am not at all in favor of rewarding those who break our laws.

We tried this under Reagan, and the Dems did not keep their promise.

None of what you wrote is supported by anything other than animus against "illegals." Care to try again with your argument?

Seriously, I keep on giving you guys SO MANY CHANCES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Ok well the words and actions of Republicans show that they hate brown people and Muslims and want to create animus against immigrants as an electoral issue for their white base, and it's working.

See how far that kind of argumentation goes?

Please, try to engage, and get past the slogans. I'd like to THINK you are smarter than that, although I have yet to see much intelligent engagement here. Pretty much the only smart thing I have heard anyone say on this thread is that the wellbeing of workers does not necesarily coincide with the wellbeing of the economy. To which I say -- good point, and Bernie would like to have a word with you!

I understand if you don't know this because you have no reason to, but getting green cards and citizenship under the Obama administration has been SIGNIFICANTLY restricted for Muslims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ok well the words and actions of Republicans show that they hate brown people and Muslims and want to create animus against immigrants as an electoral issue for their white base, and it's working.

See how far that kind of argumentation goes?

Please, try to engage, and get past the slogans. I'd like to THINK you are smarter than that, although I have yet to see much intelligent engagement here. Pretty much the only smart thing I have heard anyone say on this thread is that the wellbeing of workers does not necesarily coincide with the wellbeing of the economy. To which I say -- good point, and Bernie would like to have a word with you!

I understand if you don't know this because you have no reason to, but getting green cards and citizenship under the Obama administration has been SIGNIFICANTLY restricted for Muslims.

So you're pro-Muslim immigration now?

Yes, I know that Obama failed to reform immigration. One of the biggest failures of his administration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, I think that immigration reform has to come first or at the same time. As it is, the Trump administration is expending tremendous resources and political capital on things like tearing babies away from mothers, while not working on immigration reform, and taking away resources from things like actually pursuing drug and human traffickers at the border (which everyone can agree is important). A practical approach would likely recognize that trying to deport everyone that we have here now would be tremendously costly, so that would have to factor in.

If your overriding focus is "ILLEGALS ARE BAD!!" then that gets in the way of thinking rationally about policy.

You don't have to deport people. You just have to make employment and the use of public resources impossible, and people will stop coming. People come for better economics, and if this becomes impossible, there is no incentive to come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ok well the words and actions of Republicans show that they hate brown people and Muslims and want to create animus against immigrants as an electoral issue for their white base, and it's working.

See how far that kind of argumentation goes?

Please, try to engage, and get past the slogans. I'd like to THINK you are smarter than that, although I have yet to see much intelligent engagement here. Pretty much the only smart thing I have heard anyone say on this thread is that the wellbeing of workers does not necesarily coincide with the wellbeing of the economy. To which I say -- good point, and Bernie would like to have a word with you!

I understand if you don't know this because you have no reason to, but getting green cards and citizenship under the Obama administration has been SIGNIFICANTLY restricted for Muslims.

So you're pro-Muslim immigration now?

Yes, I know that Obama failed to reform immigration. One of the biggest failures of his administration.

There is no need to get personal. You don't know me, and you don't know what I'm for or against.

I am, for instance, against canonization of Obama's administration on immigration. Aspiring Muslim immigrants were targeted under his rule. You just don't know it because it was done quietly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now you're hating on Japan? Isn't that an anti-liberal measure?

Read the articles and try to engage intelligently, tx.

OK

So here's the main point from the NPR article:

Lawmakers also passed a measure in December that will allow more foreign workers to enter the country, for longer periods of time and, in some cases, with a path toward attaining Japanese citizenship.

But apparently, xenophobia is posing a problem.

So here's where I'm confused by neo liberals. When people arrive here, we bend over backward to respect their culture, right? So why should anyone bash Japan's culture? their country, their business, correct?

Based on history - with immigrants coming from South and Central America - I don't think xenophobia really factors into the mix. Look at the growth, according to Pew.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/18/how-the-u-s-hispanic-population-is-changing/



While growth is slowing down among Hispanics, general immigration growth is still expected among foreign-born - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/09/u-s-immigrant-population-projected-to-rise-even-as-share-falls-among-hispanics-asians/



I fail to see why OP has posted such an ALARMING message. lol

Perhaps you need to engage intelligently, my friend. TX

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is that immigrants are being used as scapegoat for why white Americans don’t have good paying jobs. The real reason for wage stagnation is corporations, who get massive amounts of gov assistance (corporate socialism). The GOP & FOX does a masterful job getting white Americans to believe this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

None of what you wrote is supported by anything other than animus against "illegals." Care to try again with your argument?

Seriously, I keep on giving you guys SO MANY CHANCES.

Telling everyone who disagrees with you they are unintelligent is a great route to the echo chamber. I mean, I think I made a pretty good argument that regularizing migrants turns them away from low-pay, bad-conditions jobs they occupy right now. So regularizing them won't really normalize the situation; on the contrary, it will drain away a source of cheap, right-less labor on which these industries currently rely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that immigrants are being used as scapegoat for why white Americans don’t have good paying jobs. The real reason for wage stagnation is corporations, who get massive amounts of gov assistance (corporate socialism). The GOP & FOX does a masterful job getting white Americans to believe this.

When we were in Mo Co, it was rare to see a white teen at DD or McDonald's or any other business that required people to do menial work. I know this isn't the case everywhere, but parents need to stop coddling their kids - and I'm talking about the white kids.

Yes, I'm white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that immigrants are being used as scapegoat for why white Americans don’t have good paying jobs. The real reason for wage stagnation is corporations, who get massive amounts of gov assistance (corporate socialism). The GOP & FOX does a masterful job getting white Americans to believe this.

When we were in Mo Co, it was rare to see a white teen at DD or McDonald's or any other business that required people to do menial work. I know this isn't the case everywhere, but parents need to stop coddling their kids - and I'm talking about the white kids.

Yes, I'm white.

Yes, there’s that too. White folks see themselves above “menial labor” but bitch when immigrants take them.

Any Trumpers willing to milk cows if pay was higher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, I think that immigration reform has to come first or at the same time. As it is, the Trump administration is expending tremendous resources and political capital on things like tearing babies away from mothers, while not working on immigration reform, and taking away resources from things like actually pursuing drug and human traffickers at the border (which everyone can agree is important). A practical approach would likely recognize that trying to deport everyone that we have here now would be tremendously costly, so that would have to factor in.

If your overriding focus is "ILLEGALS ARE BAD!!" then that gets in the way of thinking rationally about policy.

You don't have to deport people. You just have to make employment and the use of public resources impossible, and people will stop coming. People come for better economics, and if this becomes impossible, there is no incentive to come.

Which does not answer my original question: how do you propose to run the economy without enough low-skilled workers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now you're hating on Japan? Isn't that an anti-liberal measure?

Read the articles and try to engage intelligently, tx.

OK

So here's the main point from the NPR article:

Lawmakers also passed a measure in December that will allow more foreign workers to enter the country, for longer periods of time and, in some cases, with a path toward attaining Japanese citizenship.

But apparently, xenophobia is posing a problem.

So here's where I'm confused by neo liberals. When people arrive here, we bend over backward to respect their culture, right? So why should anyone bash Japan's culture? their country, their business, correct?

Based on history - with immigrants coming from South and Central America - I don't think xenophobia really factors into the mix. Look at the growth, according to Pew.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/18/how-the-u-s-hispanic-population-is-changing/



While growth is slowing down among Hispanics, general immigration growth is still expected among foreign-born - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/09/u-s-immigrant-population-projected-to-rise-even-as-share-falls-among-hispanics-asians/



I fail to see why OP has posted such an ALARMING message. lol

Perhaps you need to engage intelligently, my friend. TX

I appreciate that you posted actual research, I really do.

But, I'm not sure how it relates to immigration policy? Those charts seem to support what I am saying - that population growth (which is needed) is currently coming from immigrants to the US.

As for "bashing Japanese culture" -- I'm not doing that. Japan is just the best example of what happens when a 1st world country has restrictive immigration policies plus a tradition of xenophobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ok well the words and actions of Republicans show that they hate brown people and Muslims and want to create animus against immigrants as an electoral issue for their white base, and it's working.

See how far that kind of argumentation goes?

Please, try to engage, and get past the slogans. I'd like to THINK you are smarter than that, although I have yet to see much intelligent engagement here. Pretty much the only smart thing I have heard anyone say on this thread is that the wellbeing of workers does not necesarily coincide with the wellbeing of the economy. To which I say -- good point, and Bernie would like to have a word with you!

I understand if you don't know this because you have no reason to, but getting green cards and citizenship under the Obama administration has been SIGNIFICANTLY restricted for Muslims.

So you're pro-Muslim immigration now?

Yes, I know that Obama failed to reform immigration. One of the biggest failures of his administration.

There is no need to get personal. You don't know me, and you don't know what I'm for or against.

I am, for instance, against canonization of Obama's administration on immigration. Aspiring Muslim immigrants were targeted under his rule. You just don't know it because it was done quietly.

again, I think that Obama failed on immigration. However, that does not provide any sort of response to Trumps much worse failure (and of course his MUCH worse treatment of Muslims).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

None of what you wrote is supported by anything other than animus against "illegals." Care to try again with your argument?

Seriously, I keep on giving you guys SO MANY CHANCES.

Telling everyone who disagrees with you they are unintelligent is a great route to the echo chamber. I mean, I think I made a pretty good argument that regularizing migrants turns them away from low-pay, bad-conditions jobs they occupy right now. So regularizing them won't really normalize the situation; on the contrary, it will drain away a source of cheap, right-less labor on which these industries currently rely.

No, you did not make a "good argument." A good argument is supported by published research. Got that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that immigrants are being used as scapegoat for why white Americans don’t have good paying jobs. The real reason for wage stagnation is corporations, who get massive amounts of gov assistance (corporate socialism). The GOP & FOX does a masterful job getting white Americans to believe this.

Property rights are elevated above other kinds of rights. But, that's too esoteric. With our "natural rights" talk, the policy choices we've made around property rights are almost invisible. So, when the rich get richer, we take it for granted. It seems natural and not the result of choices we've made about the respective rights of workers and owners. So, what the hell, blame immigrants.