Class Size at DCPS Brent Elementary in Capitol Hill

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi DC Urban Mom Community,

I’m concerned about the increasing class size at Brent Elementary, a DCPS school in Capitol Hill. In years past, class sizes have been 20-21 for the elementary grades, but this year they are MUCH larger. Many classes have 24-26 students, with some as large as 28. I’m concerned because many of these new students have been admitted through the lottery (students who don’t live in-bounds) - making these class size increases purposeful decisions of the current Principal/administration.

I also recently learned that the Washington Teachers Union limits class size to 20 students - which means teachers at Brent are feeling pressured they might not face at other schools - which could lead to teachers leaving.

Any ideas on how to address this problem of larger class sizes/and possible increased future teacher turnover?

Thanks!

First, start the conversation with correct facts. In DCPS, target class sizes are:

Pre-Kindergarten Without an Aide 15
Pre-Kindergarten With an Aide 20
Kindergarten Through Grade 2 20
Grades 3 Through 12 25
Remedial Classes 12

This is not a limit; in reality, it is a baseline for starting discussions about adding or consolidating classes. There are many exceptions that allow you to exceed that size.

If your in boundary enrollment pushes the class size higher, it will be bigger until you are big enough that you can add a class and get each of the new ones at least to 20 by adding OOB enrollment. Typically, once you hit 28 in 2nd and lower, you can argue to add a class. You say many are 24; well, if you have two classes of 24 and split them into three, you only have 16 in each so you don't have enough to budget the third class, so DCPS will add more OOB kids to make up the difference and afford a teacher/aide in the new room. And not having a physical classroom simply requires creativity - and trailer classrooms. DCPS has lots of them ready and waiting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

If that's what has to happen, then that's what has to happen. Not sure why this is so mind bending to the Brent folks. There are plenty of PK programs around the city your child can still attend if free preschool tuition is that pressing. K-5 kids are the priority.

I’m a Brent ECE parent and would be fine with that happening. Maybe the nurse could be moved somewhere and knock down those walls. Maybe I’m in the minority though. I think where people are getting hung up however -- and maybe this is the perfect being the enemy of the good — is that adding one classroom wouldn’t do much or help for long. So it might be two more trailers in 2019, cut ECE and knock down a wall in 2020 or 2021... And then what? I’m in favor of cutting back on ECE at Brent but I also agree it’s not a long or even a medium term fix to the space problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

If that's what has to happen, then that's what has to happen. Not sure why this is so mind bending to the Brent folks. There are plenty of PK programs around the city your child can still attend if free preschool tuition is that pressing. K-5 kids are the priority.

I’m a Brent ECE parent and would be fine with that happening. Maybe the nurse could be moved somewhere and knock down those walls. Maybe I’m in the minority though. I think where people are getting hung up however -- and maybe this is the perfect being the enemy of the good — is that adding one classroom wouldn’t do much or help for long. So it might be two more trailers in 2019, cut ECE and knock down a wall in 2020 or 2021... And then what? I’m in favor of cutting back on ECE at Brent but I also agree it’s not a long or even a medium term fix to the space problem.

Basically Brent is a NW school now. Parents in NW were dealing with this exact same thing at least 12 years ago. Hint: the answer involved trailers, structural additions, and better enrollment projections. That last part is still a problem for DCPS, obviously, for anyone watching the continued overcrowding at NW schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

If that's what has to happen, then that's what has to happen. Not sure why this is so mind bending to the Brent folks. There are plenty of PK programs around the city your child can still attend if free preschool tuition is that pressing. K-5 kids are the priority.

I’m a Brent ECE parent and would be fine with that happening. Maybe the nurse could be moved somewhere and knock down those walls. Maybe I’m in the minority though. I think where people are getting hung up however -- and maybe this is the perfect being the enemy of the good — is that adding one classroom wouldn’t do much or help for long. So it might be two more trailers in 2019, cut ECE and knock down a wall in 2020 or 2021... And then what? I’m in favor of cutting back on ECE at Brent but I also agree it’s not a long or even a medium term fix to the space problem.

Basically Brent is a NW school now. Parents in NW were dealing with this exact same thing at least 12 years ago. Hint: the answer involved trailers, structural additions, and better enrollment projections. That last part is still a problem for DCPS, obviously, for anyone watching the continued overcrowding at NW schools.

Agree. The solution for DCPS is to solve the here and now, not what's to come. So you will be most successful approaching it the same way, albeit frustrating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The pps who come here to express a burning desire to see ECE dramatically scaled back at Brent don't seem to have a clue how capacity management decisions are made in DCPS schools. Parents and school admins have much less say in these matters than you might think. Admins can't push to axe programs DCPS wants to retain in almost all of its EotP elementary schools without coming to blows with systems higher ups. Not wise to pick a fight when your banged-up building needs modernizing in a big way, and not just because it's become crowded.

You keep saying this. How do you know? Until Brent goes to DCPS and says, "We want to cut ECE, how can we make it happen?," how do you know what they would say? This sounds like an excuse for inaction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

If that's what has to happen, then that's what has to happen. Not sure why this is so mind bending to the Brent folks. There are plenty of PK programs around the city your child can still attend if free preschool tuition is that pressing. K-5 kids are the priority.

It's not mind-bending to all Brent folks -- lots of Brent folks think cutting ECE is a logical first step. There is lots of "but that just won't work" or "but that's too hard" or "but we don't want to" from some people, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

The kindergarteners could use these rooms. They aren't that small. Or you knock down a wall. None of these are insurmountable obstacles. No one is claiming easy answers, but cutting ECE is a pretty easy start. Why so defeatist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pps who come here to express a burning desire to see ECE dramatically scaled back at Brent don't seem to have a clue how capacity management decisions are made in DCPS schools. Parents and school admins have much less say in these matters than you might think. Admins can't push to axe programs DCPS wants to retain in almost all of its EotP elementary schools without coming to blows with systems higher ups. Not wise to pick a fight when your banged-up building needs modernizing in a big way, and not just because it's become crowded.

You keep saying this. How do you know? Until Brent goes to DCPS and says, "We want to cut ECE, how can we make it happen?," how do you know what they would say? This sounds like an excuse for inaction.

The Brent community has been talking seriously about cutting ECE for the last five years. Some PreS3 spots have been cut, but that's as far as the pruning has gone. I don't see an ECE class or two being cut even as crowding grows. DCPS isn't on board, Principal L isn't on board, most parent leaders aren't on board.

If you want to argue against excuses for inaction in a meaningful way, please run for the LSAT or PTA Board or ask to join the SIT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiping out a PREK4 classroom WotP is probably not big deal. But at Brent, the ECE classrooms were built as Head Start classrooms in the 60s. They're unusually small in a building where all the classrooms are already smaller than the DCPS elementary school norm.

You couldn't just dump ECE in one room and use that classroom for the older rooms - not enough room. You'd have to knock down a wall or two and join two ECE to create a bigger room to accommodate older kids. Even using an ECE room for a special wouldn't work very well due to space limitations. There just aren't any easy answers without a massive budget for a big renovation with the kids in a swing space for a school year, maybe longer.

The kindergarteners could use these rooms. They aren't that small. Or you knock down a wall. None of these are insurmountable obstacles. No one is claiming easy answers, but cutting ECE is a pretty easy start. Why so defeatist?

Because I argued for all of the above, 5, 4, 3 years ago with other parents over and over. The obstacles only seem to grow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pps who come here to express a burning desire to see ECE dramatically scaled back at Brent don't seem to have a clue how capacity management decisions are made in DCPS schools. Parents and school admins have much less say in these matters than you might think. Admins can't push to axe programs DCPS wants to retain in almost all of its EotP elementary schools without coming to blows with systems higher ups. Not wise to pick a fight when your banged-up building needs modernizing in a big way, and not just because it's become crowded.

You keep saying this. How do you know? Until Brent goes to DCPS and says, "We want to cut ECE, how can we make it happen?," how do you know what they would say? This sounds like an excuse for inaction.

The Brent community has been talking seriously about cutting ECE for the last five years. Some PreS3 spots have been cut, but that's as far as the pruning has gone. I don't see an ECE class or two being cut even as crowding grows. DCPS isn't on board, Principal L isn't on board, most parent leaders aren't on board.

If you want to argue against excuses for inaction in a meaningful way, please run for the LSAT or PTA Board or ask to join the SIT.

So what are your great alternatives?

[Anonymous]

Not the poster you're asking but longtime Brent parent (with 3 years to go) who sees no easy road ahead. Lobbying DCPS for a massive renovation seems to be what Norah and longtime parents leaders have their sights on. I don't hear serious talk about cutting ece or new trailers or building out rom the battered building.

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP who proposed eliminating PreS3 several years into Principal Young's tenure (and I was hardly alone).

Some of us at Brent have lost patience with piecemeal solutions to addressing crowding.

Agree that it's time to push hard for a thoroughly modernized building, even if the campus gets a lot more crowded in the interim and my own kids have left Brent by the time the design and build process is complete (likely).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who proposed eliminating PreS3 several years into Principal Young's tenure (and I was hardly alone).

Some of us at Brent have lost patience with piecemeal solutions to addressing crowding.

Agree that it's time to push hard for a thoroughly modernized building, even if the campus gets a lot more crowded in the interim and my own kids have left Brent by the time the design and build process is complete (likely).

A school that doesn’t have a long term growth plan will face challenges beyond overcrowding... including a possible staffing problem, as our teachers are asked to manage the increased workload. Sometimes I think this gets overlooked as we focus on the effects crowded classrooms have on our kids. I hope the current admin. is having this convo with staff - something to bring up at the next Principal’s coffee.

[Anonymous]

+100, you're right, PP.

[Anonymous]

This principal is very much thinking about long-term growth and how to deal with it. The past principal was the one who was letting things just happen.