Does alimony still happen in VA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The value of what a sahm gets while still married can be valued - half the mortgage, half the utilities, half the insurance premiums, clothing, food, entertainment. Basically, every dollar the household spends. Half of that is what she is getting 'paid'. So for those who suggest a sahm, on divorce, should get backpay for 20 years of being a nanny.... Okay, do that calculation, then subtract the value of all those benefits she's been receiving. I suspect that leaves her in a net negative position.

This. Unfortunately I think many SAHMs don’t understand this when they say they are owed money. Probably if there is a nice lifestyle involved it would not come out equal even if you factor on her labor at market rates.

I am a lawyer turned SAHM. I think understand alimony in Virginia better than you do!

Nobody is arguing what the law is. We're all saying that in 2021, it's unethical and embarrassing.

So the statement that SAHMs don’t understand things is false. SAHMs in long term marriages often are entitled to substantial alimony relative to the income of the other spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily;
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments
3. Pick up your children from school
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV)
5. Do all of the grocery shopping
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands
8. Plan and cook meals
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls

I quit a good paying job about five years ago at the urging of my husband. When I was working, we were constantly negotiating who would take the kids to the doctor, pick them up from school. We made this decision to have less stress in our family life. Not only did it make our lives less stressful, we also did this because our kids were struggling with anxiety and depression. I've not been eating bonbons. It's been grueling and not easy to shift into this role, but it has been really important for our children's mental health.

At this point, as I'm pushing 50, I'm not a great candidate in the workforce. It saddens me to see the callous comments in this thread about women who make this sacrifice for their family. Ultimately, it is a benefit to society if a parent can afford to stay home with children who are depressed, etc. I realize not everyone has this luxury - it is no doubt holding us back financially, but being there for kids with special needs in particular is something society should not be shaming.

Let's leave the special needs scenario aside as it is a special case.

For the neurotypical families, the mindset of "what would you pay for someone to do XYZ" is not justified. A SAHM cannot be compared to hired help for one simple reason: the help does not enjoy the fruit of their labor. A personal chef does not eat what he cooks. A nanny doesn't acquire 50% interest in your children. A housekeeper does not live in your house. Everything a SAHM does, she does 50% for herself. Do you grocery shop, plan and cook meals? Half of that is for you. Do you tutor your children? Half of that is on you. Do you have a clean, nicely decorated house? Congratulations, you live there too and you enjoy it. Don't compare your labor for your family with what hired help does, delivers to you and goes home.

It would have cost us more than my salary for child care and I have a masters. Plus, taking care of my mil. What would you propse? A nanny and an aide? Whose paying for all that? Not everyone is high income.

I propose that you see these trials as simple shit life flings at pretty much everyone. It's not an equivalent to paid labor. It's not something you do FOR someone. It's your life.

So, what do you propose? It was a joint choice to have kids. It was a joint choice to take care of my husband's mom. It absolutely is something you have to do for someone. If I didn't care for my kids, who would? If I didn't care for my MIL, who would? My husband's earning ability was significantly higher than mine and I was more qualified to handle the caretaking. Just because you wouldn't care for your MIL and set a good example for your kids, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't be decent people and do it.

You sound like a nasty vindictive person. Life must be so hard for you.

Reality is if you cannot afford to pay someone, you have to do it yourself and sometimes some cannot afford to work.

Why is your salary potential significantly lower than your DH's? At what point did you decide you could step back on the easier "fulfilling" career while your husband ate shit at a high stress job every day? And wasn't that decision driven by the knowledge that your DH can keep your finances afloat? So at some point way earlier than having kids, you decided to take the backseat to your husband's career, work less, be less stressed and let him bear the financial burden. Not sure why you should get paid out on divorce for that.

I decided it when I was a child that I wanted to help people. My husband was happy to bear the financial burden. My husband was happy to let me make the choice and would have supported me either way but financially it did not make sense for me to work. And, when we choose it, my husband wasn't a high earner either. We made the money we have work. And, what I did between a SN child and caring for his mom with dementia was far more stressful than working for him. Of course, I should get half of everything and future support. We'd never divorce, but that's not the point. For him to have his career, someone had to handle things at home. If he had to quit to take care of his mom, then what? If he had to quit to take our child to 1-2 therapies and preschool (40 minutes away as it was one for SN), then what? If his earnings were more than mine, would it make sense for him to stay home or me? If it would have cost us more in an nanny and aide, did it make sense for me to work? We'd be throwing away money we didn't have that could be spent on therapies for our child.

You are living in an alternative reality if you think all women can have it all and work, have a housekeeper and nanny like you do and earn enough to make it worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The suggestion that in 2021, you need a sahw to fully allow a man to fully succeed in his career.... ? What world do you ladies live in? Is this what you tell yourselves to justify your set ups?

I'm a partner in big law. Yes, twenty years ago the male partners all had sahws. Not any more. I look around my immediate team, and the partners' wives are: counsel for a major corporation (probably making $400k), counsel for a smaller company (makes $240k), special needs therapist, medical research doctor running a fancy national research program, G15 type job at state department, trophy wife and trophy wife. The two trophy wife guys are both in their 60s and close to retirement. Everyone else is 40s and 50s. These guys work a ton, but are all involved in their kids and outsource appropriately at home. Having someone at home folding their underwear is not remotely a necessity for their professional success. No matter what you tell yourself.

I'm sure posters will respond and say that we don't all make high salaries like that. But the whole point of your argument is that your staying home supports your husband's career trajectory. So I assume he's making at least $300k. Most men making that kind of income statistically are married to women with equal income potential. You ladies just opted out.

Men making $200k a year rarely have sahws in hcol areas like dc. Most families all across america have two working parents. No one needs a sahw.

Instead of a SAH spouse, you hired a nanny, gardner, housekeeper and others to do the work at home. How is it any different? Only difference is kids benefit from having a parent at home vs. being raised by a nanny who is a stranger.

Being big law and a high level working spouse, how many hours a week do you spend with your kids? Do you help with the homework every night? Cook them dinner? Take them to activities? Do bath, bedtime? Play with them? Teach them to read?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Family law attorney here

Look people, you might not like it, but don't spread misinformation in here. In a long marriage like this, where the wife hasn't worked by choice of both partners, yes she will be awarded some type of alimony unless her lawyer is a real incompetent. which I doubt because you'd have to be a huge fool not to present a case for it.

Even if she is a licensed attorney? Even if her husband a has a record of emails going back a decade begging her to get a job and start contributing to the family?

Yes. Neither of those facts would change this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily;
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments
3. Pick up your children from school
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV)
5. Do all of the grocery shopping
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands
8. Plan and cook meals
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls

I quit a good paying job about five years ago at the urging of my husband. When I was working, we were constantly negotiating who would take the kids to the doctor, pick them up from school. We made this decision to have less stress in our family life. Not only did it make our lives less stressful, we also did this because our kids were struggling with anxiety and depression. I've not been eating bonbons. It's been grueling and not easy to shift into this role, but it has been really important for our children's mental health.

At this point, as I'm pushing 50, I'm not a great candidate in the workforce. It saddens me to see the callous comments in this thread about women who make this sacrifice for their family. Ultimately, it is a benefit to society if a parent can afford to stay home with children who are depressed, etc. I realize not everyone has this luxury - it is no doubt holding us back financially, but being there for kids with special needs in particular is something society should not be shaming.

I have always done all of that and I also WAH full-time bringing in $175k.

Are your children special needs?

DP - yes. And it's very, very hard. But I don't have the financial privilege to not work a job. So I work, plus do your list of things above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I got divorced three years ago after being married for 24 years. I got alimony for life.

Hopefully the courts force you to work the exact same number of hours as your alimony paying husband.
Otherwise, exactly WHAT special thing did you do to deserve some other working slave to support you for live?

Sigh. . . guy here -- what did she do? In a marriage when you have an arrangement like this, if it works, is a partnership. Into that partnership one spouse puts income from work along with presumably hard stressful work. the stay at home spouse puts in time so the other does not need to worry about kids, food, bills, dry cleaning, home repair, and really anything else. Together it is a partnership. But it is not a partnership for its duration. It extends beyond the end. So alimony. That is the deal. Why? Because you cannot put a career back together with 20 plus years out of the workforce. So when two people make that deal --- it is not for life but it for longer than the marriage. If you do not like that -- don't make the deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I got divorced three years ago after being married for 24 years. I got alimony for life.

Hopefully the courts force you to work the exact same number of hours as your alimony paying husband.
Otherwise, exactly WHAT special thing did you do to deserve some other working slave to support you for live?

Sigh. . . guy here -- what did she do? In a marriage when you have an arrangement like this, if it works, is a partnership. Into that partnership one spouse puts income from work along with presumably hard stressful work. the stay at home spouse puts in time so the other does not need to worry about kids, food, bills, dry cleaning, home repair, and really anything else. Together it is a partnership. But it is not a partnership for its duration. It extends beyond the end. So alimony. That is the deal. Why? Because you cannot put a career back together with 20 plus years out of the workforce. So when two people make that deal --- it is not for life but it for longer than the marriage. If you do not like that -- don't make the deal.

Correct.

[Anonymous]

DW is a SAHM

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily; -for the most part we all do some work to keep house clean
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments - yes she does this
3. Pick up your children from school - I actually do this
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV) - DCs do this on their own
5. Do all of the grocery shopping - she does this
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners - I do most of the laundry
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands - I do this
8. Plan and cook meals - DW does this
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls - DW does this

She always wanted to be a SAHM she expressed this to me when we were dating. Now she talks about how she gave up her career to be a SAHM, makes me crazy. She never had a career, she had an ivy 4 year degree she never used and was working part time when we got married

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DW is a SAHM

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily; -for the most part we all do some work to keep house clean
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments - yes she does this
3. Pick up your children from school - I actually do this
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV) - DCs do this on their own
5. Do all of the grocery shopping - she does this
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners - I do most of the laundry
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands - I do this
8. Plan and cook meals - DW does this
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls - DW does this

She always wanted to be a SAHM she expressed this to me when we were dating. Now she talks about how she gave up her career to be a SAHM, makes me crazy. She never had a career, she had an ivy 4 year degree she never used and was working part time when we got married

Well, should you ever divorce, you can expect to support her for at least some period of time and possibly as long as her or your death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily;
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments
3. Pick up your children from school
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV)
5. Do all of the grocery shopping
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands
8. Plan and cook meals
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls

I quit a good paying job about five years ago at the urging of my husband. When I was working, we were constantly negotiating who would take the kids to the doctor, pick them up from school. We made this decision to have less stress in our family life. Not only did it make our lives less stressful, we also did this because our kids were struggling with anxiety and depression. I've not been eating bonbons. It's been grueling and not easy to shift into this role, but it has been really important for our children's mental health.

At this point, as I'm pushing 50, I'm not a great candidate in the workforce. It saddens me to see the callous comments in this thread about women who make this sacrifice for their family. Ultimately, it is a benefit to society if a parent can afford to stay home with children who are depressed, etc. I realize not everyone has this luxury - it is no doubt holding us back financially, but being there for kids with special needs in particular is something society should not be shaming.

Let's leave the special needs scenario aside as it is a special case.

For the neurotypical families, the mindset of "what would you pay for someone to do XYZ" is not justified. A SAHM cannot be compared to hired help for one simple reason: the help does not enjoy the fruit of their labor. A personal chef does not eat what he cooks. A nanny doesn't acquire 50% interest in your children. A housekeeper does not live in your house. Everything a SAHM does, she does 50% for herself. Do you grocery shop, plan and cook meals? Half of that is for you. Do you tutor your children? Half of that is on you. Do you have a clean, nicely decorated house? Congratulations, you live there too and you enjoy it. Don't compare your labor for your family with what hired help does, delivers to you and goes home.

It would have cost us more than my salary for child care and I have a masters. Plus, taking care of my mil. What would you propse? A nanny and an aide? Whose paying for all that? Not everyone is high income.

I propose that you see these trials as simple shit life flings at pretty much everyone. It's not an equivalent to paid labor. It's not something you do FOR someone. It's your life.

So, what do you propose? It was a joint choice to have kids. It was a joint choice to take care of my husband's mom. It absolutely is something you have to do for someone. If I didn't care for my kids, who would? If I didn't care for my MIL, who would? My husband's earning ability was significantly higher than mine and I was more qualified to handle the caretaking. Just because you wouldn't care for your MIL and set a good example for your kids, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't be decent people and do it.

You sound like a nasty vindictive person. Life must be so hard for you.

Reality is if you cannot afford to pay someone, you have to do it yourself and sometimes some cannot afford to work.

LOL you aren't OK with me not caring for my MIL but you're ok with your husband not doing it?

[Anonymous]

I honestly don't understand why people with earning potential get married any more. You can have kids without marriage and you don't get tied to someone under terrible contract terms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don't understand why people with earning potential get married any more. You can have kids without marriage and you don't get tied to someone under terrible contract terms.

That is an option. Not one that many high earners take. But a definite option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don't understand why people with earning potential get married any more. You can have kids without marriage and you don't get tied to someone under terrible contract terms.

It is true that the way the law is currently, you are better off with bastard children than being married to the mother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily;
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments
3. Pick up your children from school
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV)
5. Do all of the grocery shopping
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands
8. Plan and cook meals
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls

I quit a good paying job about five years ago at the urging of my husband. When I was working, we were constantly negotiating who would take the kids to the doctor, pick them up from school. We made this decision to have less stress in our family life. Not only did it make our lives less stressful, we also did this because our kids were struggling with anxiety and depression. I've not been eating bonbons. It's been grueling and not easy to shift into this role, but it has been really important for our children's mental health.

At this point, as I'm pushing 50, I'm not a great candidate in the workforce. It saddens me to see the callous comments in this thread about women who make this sacrifice for their family. Ultimately, it is a benefit to society if a parent can afford to stay home with children who are depressed, etc. I realize not everyone has this luxury - it is no doubt holding us back financially, but being there for kids with special needs in particular is something society should not be shaming.

I have always done all of that and I also WAH full-time bringing in $175k.

Are your children special needs?

DP - yes. And it's very, very hard. But I don't have the financial privilege to not work a job. So I work, plus do your list of things above.

You probably have a high income, mild sn and a nanny. We’re you taking your child to multiple therapy appointments a day? Did you full time caretaker someone with dementia who could not be left alone. You have no idea if you had the luxury of working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing: the things that a stay at home parent does is undervalued. Think of it this way: what would it cost to pay someone to:
1. Keep your house tidy and clean daily;
2. Manage all doctors appointments and take your children to those appointments
3. Pick up your children from school
4. Make sure homework is done, and provide tutoring to your children (tutors cost at least $100/hour, often more in the DMV)
5. Do all of the grocery shopping
6. Do your laundry and take clothes to the cleaners
7. Pick up all family members Rx and run errands
8. Plan and cook meals
9. Stay home with your kids when they are sick or pick them up early if the school nurse calls

I quit a good paying job about five years ago at the urging of my husband. When I was working, we were constantly negotiating who would take the kids to the doctor, pick them up from school. We made this decision to have less stress in our family life. Not only did it make our lives less stressful, we also did this because our kids were struggling with anxiety and depression. I've not been eating bonbons. It's been grueling and not easy to shift into this role, but it has been really important for our children's mental health.

At this point, as I'm pushing 50, I'm not a great candidate in the workforce. It saddens me to see the callous comments in this thread about women who make this sacrifice for their family. Ultimately, it is a benefit to society if a parent can afford to stay home with children who are depressed, etc. I realize not everyone has this luxury - it is no doubt holding us back financially, but being there for kids with special needs in particular is something society should not be shaming.

Let's leave the special needs scenario aside as it is a special case.

For the neurotypical families, the mindset of "what would you pay for someone to do XYZ" is not justified. A SAHM cannot be compared to hired help for one simple reason: the help does not enjoy the fruit of their labor. A personal chef does not eat what he cooks. A nanny doesn't acquire 50% interest in your children. A housekeeper does not live in your house. Everything a SAHM does, she does 50% for herself. Do you grocery shop, plan and cook meals? Half of that is for you. Do you tutor your children? Half of that is on you. Do you have a clean, nicely decorated house? Congratulations, you live there too and you enjoy it. Don't compare your labor for your family with what hired help does, delivers to you and goes home.

It would have cost us more than my salary for child care and I have a masters. Plus, taking care of my mil. What would you propse? A nanny and an aide? Whose paying for all that? Not everyone is high income.

I propose that you see these trials as simple shit life flings at pretty much everyone. It's not an equivalent to paid labor. It's not something you do FOR someone. It's your life.

So, what do you propose? It was a joint choice to have kids. It was a joint choice to take care of my husband's mom. It absolutely is something you have to do for someone. If I didn't care for my kids, who would? If I didn't care for my MIL, who would? My husband's earning ability was significantly higher than mine and I was more qualified to handle the caretaking. Just because you wouldn't care for your MIL and set a good example for your kids, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't be decent people and do it.

You sound like a nasty vindictive person. Life must be so hard for you.

Reality is if you cannot afford to pay someone, you have to do it yourself and sometimes some cannot afford to work.

LOL you aren't OK with me not caring for my MIL but you're ok with your husband not doing it?

My husband did help when he was not working. Someone had to work. Someone had to stay home. The highest earner worked. What other option was there?

You have no clue living your life of privilege.