Marshall High School?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It may be helpful to consider that there is no equivalent "AP diploma" - students simply take AP courses and then test. Many students at Marshall take IB courses and then test. Far fewer do the significant extra work to qualify for the IB Diploma. The students who commit to this are truly taking on an exceptional workload with no equivalent in the AP world.

Also note that Marshall introduced the IB program in 1997 as part of a drive to attract a higher socio-economic class to the school. It was felt that a more diverse student body (and parental support) could help upgrade the school. The Marshall community is significantly more diverse socially and economically than the Madison community - students represent 82 countries and speak more than 65 languages - 46% are minorities (18% Asian,17% Hispanic, 5% African American and 6% multi-racial).

The IB program is effectively a 'school within a school' and those students who participate have little to no interaction in class rooms with the other students. Of course, in the athletics and other extra-curriculars there is more widespread participation. The result is that analysis of 'averages' is highly misleading. While hundreds of students take IB courses, very few commit to pursuing an IB Diploma. Marshall has an exceptional success rate with those students who did commit in 2015 - approximately 93% succeeded. As a percentage of the overall class, this select group is approximately 20%. Marshall's success with students taking IB exams is supported by the fact that in 20 courses, Marshall's IB average test score was greater than the world average.

And a final thought, before you condemn the IB program, consider that this program is international and both trains and evaluates teachers and students against their peers from around the world. An IB diploma from Marshall is directly equivalent to what is taught and tested in IB programs from France, Hong Kong, Bogota or Paris. The teachers are both taught and are evaluated on their grading each year - a sample of student work is assessed locally and then submitted to Geneva for independent evaluation with feedback to the teachers. The objectives of the IB Program are exactly aligned with the FCPS Portrait of a Graduate - embodying the goal of teaching students the skills necessary to succeed in the modern world. The AP program has no comprehensive evaluation and feedback, nor does it establish expectations for developing a broad skill set and capabilities that IB encompasses.

The IB program is certainly not for every student. It is writing intensive and has a substantial work requirement in addition to the regular classes. It requires 4 years of language with a minimum tested facility. It requires a substantial research paper. It requires a substantial service commitment. And it requires an additional class in the Theory of Knowledge (Philosophy). And it requires a high level of tested performance in a broad range of studies. IB students are actively recruited by the best universities and are successful in being accepted. I'll post again at the end of the month when the college acceptances are finalized.

I don't mean to diminish those students who undertake AP course work. My intention is to facilitate understanding of the difference between taking courses (either IB or AP) and the commitment to achieving an IB Diploma. I hope that helps...

Your post is disingenuous and misleading. You purport not to diminish those students who undertake AP course work, but of course that is exactly what you set out to do here.

If the IB Diploma "has no equivalent in the AP world," there is no "equivalent in the IB world" to the flexibility and subject-matter depth that AP students can explore. It doesn't make the IB experience better, just different, and the fact remains that the majority of the county's higher-achieving students gravitate towards the AP curriculum. The Marshall IB Diploma candidates don't have any leg-up on students at nearby schools taking a lot of AP classes. They do have an advantage relative to the other Marshall students.

You are correct, of course, that FCPS introduced IB into certain schools decades ago with the hope that it would attract a higher SES student body. It did not. In fact, just the opposite occurred. Most of the county's IB schools have become poorer over the years, and several now see large pupil placements every year to AP schools. For example, Mount Vernon, Lee, and Annandale (all IB) lose dozens of students to West Potomac, West Springfield and Woodson (all AP) every year. If the SES profile of Marshall is more affluent now than it was in 1997, it's not because FCPS installed IB there, but instead because it's located near jobs in Tysons and a few Metro stations.

As for the notion that the IB program is essentially a "school within a school," perhaps that is the case, but it reinforces the fact that the non-IB Diploma candidates at the school, who typically comprise 75-95% of the student body, end up attending a "school outside a school," where they don't have access to AP classes and yet are made aware, in different ways and on a regular basis, of their second-class status within those schools. I attended a graduation ceremony at an IB school in FCPS where the IB coordinator spoke longer than anyone else besides the graduation speaker, including the principal, touting how wonderful the IB program was. Fun stuff for the IB Diploma candidates, but not so great for the other students. Compare that to the environment at Madison or other top AP schools, where the vast majority of students take varying numbers of AP courses, no one gets pushed off the pedestal because they only took nine, as opposed to 11, AP courses, and it is just one large, strong school.

When it comes to college admissions from Marshall, one need not wait until later this year, but can look at past examples here (look for the June editions): http://www.gcmnews.net/media/rnf/print/ Quite honestly, it's not especially impressive, particularly if you are familiar with the college admissions from nearby AP schools like Langley and Madison.

OP originally was looking for a house in the Madison district, with a budget ($900K) that isn't out of line at all with the typical house in Vienna. Unless she really, really thinks that IB is the right program for her kids, I would suggest she stick to her guns, and wait to see if more houses in her budget zoned for Madison are listed soon. IB is much more of a niche program than AP, and there are a lot of folks who buy in IB districts without really understanding what the program involves or whether it would be a good fit for their kids.

[Anonymous]

+1. We had kids at both AP and IB schools. The AP kids had a much better experience overall. So far they seem to be doing OK in the modern world.

Every time I see a post like 15:20 I know some IBO employee or local IB coordinator is trying to keep their job.

[Anonymous]

Interesting reaction to some facts...

I assure you I was not disingenuous. I made no statement that IB is 'better' than AP. I pointedly made a comment that 'it is not for everyone'. I tried to inform people about the difference between the idea of AP and IB classes and the IB Diploma Program. It is a statement of fact that AP doesn't structure a curriculum towards achieving a particular AP diploma - no judgement here. I like the idea that FCPS offers both - so students and parents can decide which of the programs is appropriate for them. I did not disparage Madison or any other school. I don't defend the long windedness of an IB Coordinator at a graduation ceremony. Marshall has an IB program and a very successful Academy program as well as a strong sense of pride that extends to all students.

I'm fascinated by the lack of intellectual rigor in assessing schools and the emotional reactions that are elicited by references to particular schools or even to simple data. But I'm just a simple dad who thought he could share some insight and inform a conversation that wasn't helping anyone for lack of factual information. Guess that didn't work out so well....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting reaction to some facts...

I assure you I was not disingenuous. I made no statement that IB is 'better' than AP. I pointedly made a comment that 'it is not for everyone'. I tried to inform people about the difference between the idea of AP and IB classes and the IB Diploma Program. It is a statement of fact that AP doesn't structure a curriculum towards achieving a particular AP diploma - no judgement here. I like the idea that FCPS offers both - so students and parents can decide which of the programs is appropriate for them. I did not disparage Madison or any other school. I don't defend the long windedness of an IB Coordinator at a graduation ceremony. Marshall has an IB program and a very successful Academy program as well as a strong sense of pride that extends to all students.

I'm fascinated by the lack of intellectual rigor in assessing schools and the emotional reactions that are elicited by references to particular schools or even to simple data. But I'm just a simple dad who thought he could share some insight and inform a conversation that wasn't helping anyone for lack of factual information. Guess that didn't work out so well....

Perhaps you should indeed stick with facts next time. Starting off with an assertion that the IB "workload" has "no equivalent in the AP world" set the wrong tone, as clearly there are AP students who work as hard, if not harder, than Marshall students in the IB program.

I am also skeptical that the sense of pride in the school extends equally to all students, when both IB students and parents go to pains, as you did, to suggest the IB students are a class apart (i.e., a "school within a school").

I'm all for intellectual rigor, but it should begin with an assessment as to whether IB has achieved its goals in FCPS and warrants the additional cost per school compared to AP. Were such an assessment performed, I do not believe we would left with eight IB high schools in the county, or a system where so many students are pupil placing out of their base schools to avoid IB.

[Anonymous]

As a family that has lived overseas, the IB is the standard at all international schools. Enrolling our DD in the IB program at Marshall wnavled her to transition easily into the U.S. school system. I don't see an issue with offering parents and students a choice. If you want AP, go to a school that offers AP. If you want IB, choose that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a family that has lived overseas, the IB is the standard at all international schools. Enrolling our DD in the IB program at Marshall wnavled her to transition easily into the U.S. school system. I don't see an issue with offering parents and students a choice. If you want AP, go to a school that offers AP. If you want IB, choose that.

The county would be fine with 2-3 IB high schools given the limited demand here for IB. The system should be structured around meeting the needs of most students, not the small number coming from IB schools abroad.

[Anonymous]

Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

Great! you are a multi-lingual professional, but please check your spelling....I am in HR, and when I see typo like that, your resume will be toss out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

Actually people are missing out on AP because of IB. I'm in the Stuart pyramid and the participation in the IB diploma program is very low. I know numerous families who would prefer AP but can't allow their kids to do AP because their jobs don't allow them the flexibility to drop off and pick their kids up at school on a daily basis. Yes, they can move, but considering the low participation in the program, I'm not sure why the program is still at the school. IB is not cost neutral. I also doubt the kids taking AP languages are at a disadvantage to those taking an IB language. The AP kids aren't lacking the opportunity to be multilingual.

[Anonymous]

This is not a thread about the relative merits of IB vs. AP on a system-wide basis, this is a thread about Marshall HS, which has done a terrific job implementing the IB program by most any measure. The extent to which IB should or should not be offered in other FCPS schools is irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting reaction to some facts...

I assure you I was not disingenuous. I made no statement that IB is 'better' than AP. I pointedly made a comment that 'it is not for everyone'. I tried to inform people about the difference between the idea of AP and IB classes and the IB Diploma Program. It is a statement of fact that AP doesn't structure a curriculum towards achieving a particular AP diploma - no judgement here. I like the idea that FCPS offers both - so students and parents can decide which of the programs is appropriate for them. I did not disparage Madison or any other school. I don't defend the long windedness of an IB Coordinator at a graduation ceremony. Marshall has an IB program and a very successful Academy program as well as a strong sense of pride that extends to all students.

I'm fascinated by the lack of intellectual rigor in assessing schools and the emotional reactions that are elicited by references to particular schools or even to simple data. But I'm just a simple dad who thought he could share some insight and inform a conversation that wasn't helping anyone for lack of factual information. Guess that didn't work out so well....

Perhaps you should indeed stick with facts next time. Starting off with an assertion that the IB "workload" has "no equivalent in the AP world" set the wrong tone, as clearly there are AP students who work as hard, if not harder, than Marshall students in the IB program.

I am also skeptical that the sense of pride in the school extends equally to all students, when both IB students and parents go to pains, as you did, to suggest the IB students are a class apart (i.e., a "school within a school").

at the risk of engaging with a 'troll' - allow me to defend my statements. I provided more facts in one post than had been shared in the previous 6 pages of uninformed assertions about IB (and AP and Marshall HS). The IB Diploma Program requires additional coursework and service and language study than the FCPS diploma. AP program is a series of courses - not a Diploma Program. This seems to be a contentious point - it should not be. It does not suggest that AP students don't work 'as hard' or are not going to be 'as successful' - it is merely a difference between the structure of the two programs - a fundamental difference - not 'better' or 'worse' - got it??

You can be skeptical. I don't know what your methodology was for determining that "both IB students and parents go to pains, as you did" - not here... I appear to be the only IB parent to "go to the pain" of providing facts about IB to this forum. My characterization of 'a school within a school' was, I thought, factual in describing the distinction between IB courses (which I clearly noted are open to all and taken by hundreds of students) and the Academy at Marshall (also a successful 'school within a school'). But you know that 'IB students are a class apart'... You can also be skeptical about school pride - but tells us how much time you have spent at the GCM sports events, choir, theater, club gatherings, spirit events, graduations?

If you are "all for intellectual rigor, perhaps you could provide some information rather than simplistic assertions. We would all benefit from your sharing real information rather than invective and judgement.

btw, please provide data to support your assertion; "where so many students are pupil placing out of their base schools to avoid IB."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

Great! you are a multi-lingual professional, but please check your spelling....I am in HR, and when I see typo like that, your resume will be toss out

DCUM doesn't warrant a spell checker. I never have my resume go to HR. It usually goes directly to the hiring official through a personal connection or recommendation. HR departments, in my experience, don't do the best job at getting the best people. They're just mid-level bureaucrats who get in the way of real organizational performance. We outsource all our HR functions except for recruitment. We find we can get better people on board quicker. We just need HR to manage pay and benefits.

Funny how every post on Marshall HS provokes pages of responses. I wonder why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is someone losing out on AP because of IB? FCPS has decided to do two things: offer a rigorous alternative to AP as well as encourage greater diversification of SES, race and ethinicity at its schools. God knows that students at Langley, McKean and Nadisin could benefit from a bit more diversity. They are entering a working world that is decidedly less white in the near future.

And despite Trump, globalization ain't going anywhere and students equipped with the skills to think and act in a global context will be in high demand. I already know this from my own personal experience as a multi-lingual professional with significant international and multi-cultural management experience. The head hunters keep knocking,

Actually people are missing out on AP because of IB. I'm in the Stuart pyramid and the participation in the IB diploma program is very low. I know numerous families who would prefer AP but can't allow their kids to do AP because their jobs don't allow them the flexibility to drop off and pick their kids up at school on a daily basis. Yes, they can move, but considering the low participation in the program, I'm not sure why the program is still at the school. IB is not cost neutral. I also doubt the kids taking AP languages are at a disadvantage to those taking an IB language. The AP kids aren't lacking the opportunity to be multilingual.

Then why don't you advocate for a change at your school? The rest of the county is behind you (saves cost and most think it will attract more families to that area) but it needs actual parents from those schools to advocate for a change.

[Anonymous]

It amazes me how the Madison/McLean/Langley folks feel the need to bash Marshall at every opportunity. Not sure why they feel so threatened. The fact that Marshall is a also good school with lots to offer, should have no bearing on them.