Murch Boundary Change

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

I
While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

I'd think you'd be supporting fewer sucky commutes instead of welcoming others on to the sucky bandwagon. If DCPS concentrated on fixing neighborhood schools instead of moving kids around like widgets, parents could be sharing their good fortune instead of doing a misery-loves-company routine.

The more parents express a willingness or an expectation to be mode around at DME's bidding, the more it will happen.

NP, but doesn't this switch make your commute slightly more "sucky" and make some future OOB families' much less "sucky"? Mind you, both of you are upset but for different reasons (they WANT to go to Hearst and you don't). But overall, traffic in DC is improved substantially. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't complain (or OOB families). It just means that you cannot argue that DC is creating worse commutes overall. It is actually the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously. Much of the complaining on this thread is a waste of energy. If you are a current Murch family that has been rezoned, your time would be best utilized working to ensure that all siblings will be grandfathered in. If you were a future Murch family that was rezoned and you live close to the school, when your child comes of age, apply for proximity preference. Otherwise, if you don't want your kid to attend Hearst because there is no "H" in JKLMM and it is not up to your standards-- go private or move if it's that deep for you.

It is your right to kick up a fuss and complain if you so choose, but don't expect much sympathy from most people particularly when you consider that families at other schools which have really gotten the short end of the boundary and feeder pattern changes, haven't created three different strings with page after page bemoaning having to walk an extra couple of blocks, drive 5 minutes, or (cue shuddering) have to deal with the "traffic nightmare" those OOB families will certainly create.

You may not be able to hear yourselves above your emotions, but your complaints comes off as shallow, whiny and disingenuous.

Carry on.

Apparently you have no idea about how you come off. DME and her team must rejoice when they read things like this. Parents squabbling among themselves makes the job of divide and conquer so much easier. It's worked for them so far.

You can keep complaining here and keep the problem, or work towards finding a solution. I actually offered you some viable solutions as did a couple of other posters who suggested that current families should focus their energies on the grandfathering issue. Everybody sympathizes with that.

The city has to rework the boundaries. Whether it's you or some other family, there are only a couple of smart arguments to make and you need to identify and focus on those. Fussing about walking an extra few blocks or having to drive 5 minutes in your car is simply not going to get you anywhere. I get that those issues are important to you, but when you lay those on the table with everyone else's issues on these changes, yours are so light that they will inevitably get blown off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

We live on Veazy. We have kids three years apart. We also will have a kid at Hearst and a kid at Deal. Such is life. We will make it work. I'm sure you can too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

I don't get this argument-- we should not complain about the sucky commute because there are many others to there with a sucky commute? Really? This makes no sense at all. I am sure Hearst is a wonderful school and will only continue to get better in the next few years, and being a smaller school will have some advantages over Murch. I think this is pretty clear. However, some of us made certain life choices based on certain assumption (i.e. our kids can go to school 3 blocks away). My family made a choice to live in an apartment and walk to Murch (rather than a house a drive to Hearst). We don't see any reason why this choice has to be taken away from us, without any clear benefit for anyone. It is also unclear to me why those of you who are not rezoned or are generally not affected by the rezone are pissing hot lava over the fact that some of us the rezoned families are upset about this.

You have every right to complain if you so choose. I never said you didn't. That's what this forum is for. You're entitled to that. My point was that no one is entitled to an easy commute even if we laid down the best plans. Life happens. However, you seemed extremely frustrated by the inconvenience this change will cause you which is why you should think about applying for proximity preference if keeping that hour is important to you. PS--Try not to take anonymous comments personally. They aren't personal.

Look, I have no dog in this fight, but you know what? When you buy a house 2 blocks from a public school for which your house has been in bounds for decades? Yeah, you do get to work on the assumption that it is your IB school. And you do get to be legitimately ticked off if someone tries to take that away.

-EotP parent, who isn't trying to lottery into a WotP school, and just thinks that looks stupid and unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

We live on Veazy. We have kids three years apart. We also will have a kid at Hearst and a kid at Deal. Such is life. We will make it work. I'm sure you can too.

Seriously? You're complaining that the children you chose to space three years apart will not be in MS and ES together during the exact same years? You honestly think that's equivalent? SMH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

We live on Veazy. We have kids three years apart. We also will have a kid at Hearst and a kid at Deal. Such is life. We will make it work. I'm sure you can too.

Seriously? You're complaining that the children you chose to space three years apart will not be in MS and ES together during the exact same years? You honestly think that's equivalent? SMH.

I think you missed the poster's point. The first poster was complaining that when they have children in two different schools they won't be able to walk along the same street. The next posters was merely pointing out that almost EVERYONE with 2 kids not the same age will face the problem of two different locations for school at some point, and for the VAST majority of us that won't be two schools just down the street from one another. And we do just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

We live on Veazy. We have kids three years apart. We also will have a kid at Hearst and a kid at Deal. Such is life. We will make it work. I'm sure you can too.

Seriously? You're complaining that the children you chose to space three years apart will not be in MS and ES together during the exact same years? You honestly think that's equivalent? SMH.

I doesn't sound like the previous poster is complaining, but rather is suggesting that someone else shouldn't complain, and on another subject, you have no idea if she "chose" to space her children three years apart or not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The real solution to overcrowding at Murch is a Lafayette-Janney-Murch-Hearst choice set (with a sibling preference and some kind of proximity preference). That would allow the schools to assign new families to whatever school has the capacity for the kids.

Hearst has a new building? Boom, new families go in Hearst. Lafayette's population goes down? Boom, kids move to Lafayette with no need for redrawing boundaries. Much more sensible use of resources, really.

And as everyone keeps pointing out, all these schools are essentially the same. How can you complain about having to walk a few extra blocks or drive five minutes? The issues are really minor and will only affect incoming families. Ward 3 for choice sets!

But they're not all the same. People deliberate choose to live near Janney, Lafayette, or Murch. They just don't feel the same about Hearst. Sorry, but they just don't. Are the first three schools essentially the same? Yes performance-wise, and the differences are in the preferences. Some prefer the more international flavor of Murch. Some prefer the natural beauty and access to Rock Creek Park, some prefer the structure at Janney. All are great, the differences are around the margins. Hearst isn't in that group.

You demonstrate that you actually don't know anything about Hearst. As for "international flavor," my kid has kids from 5 different countries and three different continents in her class. We used to have the children of the Indonesian ambassador until he was transferred back home last year. As for "natural beauty" we are located on a beautiful tree surrounded space bordering the large Hearst Park with green space, soccer fields and tennis courts. I'm not sure what "structure" you mean but Hearst has plenty of structure, although one of the benefits of a smaller school with 22 or fewer kids per class is that we can also be flexible and adapt to the specific needs of each child.

Perhaps those others schools are essentially the "same," which is why we chose Hearst. After seeing the ugliness that has come out because of this debate, I'm really glad I made that choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent whose kid will be rezoned from Murch to Hearst and actually think that by the time my kid gets to Hearst it will be a better school than Murch (more diversity, better facilities, and smaller with no impending renovation headache). The thing I'm pissed about is the commute - whatever way you slice it it will add half an hour to my morning - that's 30 minutes less that i'll get to spend with my kids (other than the one i'm dragging along uphill to school) or get stuff done around the house or do work so that I can be blackberry free at home. It is pretty sucky that parents coming from the other side of connecticut will drive by my house as they speed down 36th street from albemarle on the other side of connecticut and park to drop their kid off at Murch. It is pretty sucky that Murch will lose the support of a close neighbor for things like their fall fair. It is pretty sucky that when I go to vote for Mayor I will be doing so at Murch, where my kids can't go to school anymore. For my family with my three young kids every minute saved is helpful. It is why we live in the city rather than commute from BFE. that 30 minutes twice a day is 5 hours a week, and 260 hours a year. It means that when I have a kid at Hearst and Deal I'll be walking in two totally different directions to get the kids to school instead of just up Davenport. So while I would love to send my kids to Hearst - it is definitely a problem for me from a commute perspective.

While I hear your frustration, let me submit that you're not the only parent in the city who has a sucky morning commute. Considering the fact that there are more kids in charters and in OOB slots across the District, I would argue that the majority of families here have a sucky morning commute, including this mom of three.

Life doesn't guarantee convenience.

Again, if it is that much of a hardship, apply for proximity preference.

We live on Veazy. We have kids three years apart. We also will have a kid at Hearst and a kid at Deal. Such is life. We will make it work. I'm sure you can too.

Seriously? You're complaining that the children you chose to space three years apart will not be in MS and ES together during the exact same years? You honestly think that's equivalent? SMH.

Read again: I"m the Veazy poster. I'm not complaining at all. I"m saying, that's life. It's fine. Everyone makes it work. I was more mocking the previous person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the "factoid" at the start of the thread even true? The data suggest that most of the effected families are not renters. The DME put together a "dot map" showing the effected families. These families do not seem to be clustered in apartments. Or to the extent that Murch families are, they seem to be on the other side of Connecticut in a portion of the boundary that is not being changed.

"Dot map": http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme/publication/attachments/Affected%20Kids%20Map_Labels%20FINAL%204-25-14.pdf

Yes a number of the "green dots" clustered in the upper right corner of the "Murch moving to Hearst" zone are renters, there are renters on both sides of Connecticut and in that building on Yuma, too, behind the car wash. Some don't have cars, by the way, so walking to Murch is important.

Was that the original question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the "factoid" at the start of the thread even true? The data suggest that most of the effected families are not renters. The DME put together a "dot map" showing the effected families. These families do not seem to be clustered in apartments. Or to the extent that Murch families are, they seem to be on the other side of Connecticut in a portion of the boundary that is not being changed.

"Dot map": http://dme.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dme/publication/attachments/Affected%20Kids%20Map_Labels%20FINAL%204-25-14.pdf

Yes a number of the "green dots" clustered in the upper right corner of the "Murch moving to Hearst" zone are renters, there are renters on both sides of Connecticut and in that building on Yuma, too, behind the car wash. Some don't have cars, by the way, so walking to Murch is important.

Was that the original question?

This post was a related response to the OPs query. But 8 pages of griping later I'm not sure if anyone actually addressed the OPs primary concern.

[Anonymous]

I think this thread is done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, as a future Hearst parent I would tell the Murch parents that are concerned to visit Hearst. Ask for a meeting with the principal. Meet real parents and kids at the school, I think you will be impressed and heartened by the strong community. Please come and see for yourself, even if it is a bit of a walk or a short drive for you.

I know you love your school and I am genuinely pleased for you. I want for all families to be happy with their neighborhood schools and have easy commutes. We are happy with our neighborhood school and it is Murch. We looked at schools before we purchased - including school visits - my preference for Murch is not based on a lack of information about Hearst. I have that preference and I purchased a house in that neighborhood, just 2 blocks from the school. I would not be unhappy about these changes if I thought it would bring about better schools for everyone in the city. But I fail to see how slicing up the pie in arbitrary ways helps achieve this. And as others have pointed out, this will not go very far to alleviate crowding in Murch... some renters will move apartment buildings to stay in-bounds or rent in a different building to begin with; siblings might get grandfathered; and there is the possibility of a minimum set aside for OOB kids..... I cannot see how these will make Murch less over-crowded.

And before anyone jumps on me for my last sentence above - I fully support grandfathering of siblings. On OOB set asides - I feel like the city is using this to compensate for having had a poor housing policy for years and years so there is insufficient geographic diversity of incomes in the city and we are using kids and families to fix this and giving families long commutes and less family time which gives poorer education outcomes. Traffic is already awful in this city. On the other hand, we need to deal with the realities on the ground and on the whole, OOB set asides have a place .... but my family are going to be pushed away from a school two blocks from our house - too young to have started there yet so no grandfathering - in order to alleviate over-crowding..... but probably won't do much.

All this energy is targeted in the wrong direction. I would like to see an end to the infighting - lets band together and let the DME know we reject all of this plan in its entirety and to go back to the beginning and come up with plans that will actually fix schools, provide high quality opportunities for all the kids of the city, and support families with decent schools in their neighborhoods, with lots of extra resources in the neighborhoods that need it. And that we value diversity in our schools but our children deserve better than to have to commute across the city to fix their housing policy - we need affordable housing in all neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, as a future Hearst parent I would tell the Murch parents that are concerned to visit Hearst. Ask for a meeting with the principal. Meet real parents and kids at the school, I think you will be impressed and heartened by the strong community. Please come and see for yourself, even if it is a bit of a walk or a short drive for you.

I know you love your school and I am genuinely pleased for you. I want for all families to be happy with their neighborhood schools and have easy commutes. We are happy with our neighborhood school and it is Murch. We looked at schools before we purchased - including school visits - my preference for Murch is not based on a lack of information about Hearst. I have that preference and I purchased a house in that neighborhood, just 2 blocks from the school. I would not be unhappy about these changes if I thought it would bring about better schools for everyone in the city. But I fail to see how slicing up the pie in arbitrary ways helps achieve this. And as others have pointed out, this will not go very far to alleviate crowding in Murch... some renters will move apartment buildings to stay in-bounds or rent in a different building to begin with; siblings might get grandfathered; and there is the possibility of a minimum set aside for OOB kids..... I cannot see how these will make Murch less over-crowded.

And before anyone jumps on me for my last sentence above - I fully support grandfathering of siblings. On OOB set asides - I feel like the city is using this to compensate for having had a poor housing policy for years and years so there is insufficient geographic diversity of incomes in the city and we are using kids and families to fix this and giving families long commutes and less family time which gives poorer education outcomes. Traffic is already awful in this city. On the other hand, we need to deal with the realities on the ground and on the whole, OOB set asides have a place .... but my family are going to be pushed away from a school two blocks from our house - too young to have started there yet so no grandfathering - in order to alleviate over-crowding..... but probably won't do much.

All this energy is targeted in the wrong direction. I would like to see an end to the infighting - lets band together and let the DME know we reject all of this plan in its entirety and to go back to the beginning and come up with plans that will actually fix schools, provide high quality opportunities for all the kids of the city, and support families with decent schools in their neighborhoods, with lots of extra resources in the neighborhoods that need it. And that we value diversity in our schools but our children deserve better than to have to commute across the city to fix their housing policy - we need affordable housing in all neighborhoods.

I think your arguments are actually more persuasive than the walkability/urban planning arguments. Yes, you purchased your home for a specific school and made a conscious decision to be part of that community. I think before the community is severed in some way the DME has to establish that rezoning is in fact necessary, the proposed rezoning is likely to address the problem, and it is the most sensible rezoning plan if one is necessary. The hard truth is that if changes have to be made, the only logical place to make them is within the area in the middle of all three schools, which is by definition going to move someone that is close to the current school into a different school. Rezoning is something that happens everywhere and there is not an entitlement to a particular school. Comparable quality should be taken into account as well as providing for grandfathering for both current students and siblings.

If there is going to be rezoning, I think there is a strong likelihood the initial proposals will change (but someone still will be unhappy) and they may well not change until the 2015/16 school year.

[Anonymous]

22:25 here, I meant to say they would not likely change until 2016/17 and I do not think anything will be finalized this fall.