Time to Stop Counting on Charters

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The achievement gap is most certainly not anecdotal. It's irrefutable.

I meant my experience was anecdotal. But fine, I guess I see your point. Was more just the smug "oh there were 90% FARMs there, we didn't even CONSIDER it" attitude that rubbed me the wrong way.

[Anonymous]

^And certainly wishful thinking that highly educated upper middle class parents would consider sending their kids to a school that is overwhelmingly FARMS. Just ain't gonna happen...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would definitely move rather than sacrifice a single year of my child's schooling by knowingly sending her to a failing school where the dysfunction is entrenched. Elementary years are too few and fleeting to waste a moment on a social experiment.

So basically this means that 90% of the families in Columbia Heights, Petworth, etc. with children age 4 and younger are just going to have to move or invest thousands of dollars in private school? Rather than just working together as a community, with hundreds of families that are in the exact same boat, to improve the school that is right down the block? That is going to be quite an exodus. Who do you think is going to buy all your houses?

There's some truth in this. If a class has 30 students, and 10 or 15 are children of middle class families who are a new development in Wards 1 and 4, that's a game-changer.

What schools should do is have POST-lottery open houses that are really easy for interested parents to get to.

Like 12pm on a Saturday or something really accessible.

So that they can see others in a similar boat who are interested in possibly getting into that DCPS school, so they don't just have to think the worst and act on that because they don't have any information beyond "FARMS percentages" and 3rd grade test scores.

Original Ward 4 poster here who tried to rally parents. They could do what you suggest or, you know, they could hold an open house at all. Our IB school never even held an open house, nor did they return my phone calls asking to come visit the school. We moved in right before our child's 1st birthday so I thought I would have time to build a relationship and get to know the school. My initial outreach was met with radio silence. That was when I tried to rally other parents thinking that if a group of us showed interest they would have to respond. Perhaps they'd had the same initial experience as me, which accounted for the total lack of interest.

IME, the neighborhood schools that have been the most successful are those who have proactively reached out to the community. Why my IB school doesn't do that is beyond me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^And certainly wishful thinking that highly educated upper middle class parents would consider sending their kids to a school that is overwhelmingly FARMS. Just ain't gonna happen...

I think it could happen. What if class sizes were reduced to 10-15 kids per class, awesome learning programs were implemented, and 13/15 kids in the class were poor? I think quite a few middle class parents would consider letting their children be the 14th and 15th kids. (Not saying that creating those circumstances is easy or likely.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I know I'm not "entitled" to a spot anywhere, and I am happy that some DC kids, somewhere, are benefiting from these schools, but the process does rub me the wrong way. I am a highly taxed DC taxpayer. We have a combined family income slightly over $250K. Will it kill me to spend $20K for pre-school next year? No. But it will remind me that I don't have access to a lot of the resources that my DC taxes pay for.

There are open PS3 and PK4 spaces for everyone who wants one. If you want access to free PS/PK it is yours. Nobody goes without a seat except by choice.

Really, where? I have no in-boundary PS-3, because I live in Zone 3. I've had similarly poor luck with the Out-of-Boundary PS-3 lottery, though my waitlist number for Tyler is in the low 30s--not likely, but not a joke. True, I didn't apply to certain poorly regarded charters and public OOBs, but failing schools aren't a resource that I want, and they are not the resource that I was referring to above. The point is that many (possibly most) DC families do not have access to any of the well-regarded public options, EL Haynes, Two Rivers, Mundo Verde, LAMB, Creative Minds, Cap City, etc. They might as well not exist to us. OP was completely right about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Really, where? I have no in-boundary PS-3, because I live in Zone 3. I've had similarly poor luck with the Out-of-Boundary PS-3 lottery, though my waitlist number for Tyler is in the low 30s--not likely, but not a joke. True, I didn't apply to certain poorly regarded charters and public OOBs, but failing schools aren't a resource that I want, and they are not the resource that I was referring to above. The point is that many (possibly most) DC families do not have access to any of the well-regarded public options, EL Haynes, Two Rivers, Mundo Verde, LAMB, Creative Minds, Cap City, etc. They might as well not exist to us. OP was completely right about that.

Wait, so you have no in boundary school? What will you do come kindergarten?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would definitely move rather than sacrifice a single year of my child's schooling by knowingly sending her to a failing school where the dysfunction is entrenched. Elementary years are too few and fleeting to waste a moment on a social experiment.

So basically this means that 90% of the families in Columbia Heights, Petworth, etc. with children age 4 and younger are just going to have to move or invest thousands of dollars in private school? Rather than just working together as a community, with hundreds of families that are in the exact same boat, to improve the school that is right down the block? That is going to be quite an exodus. Who do you think is going to buy all your houses?

There's some truth in this. If a class has 30 students, and 10 or 15 are children of middle class families who are a new development in Wards 1 and 4, that's a game-changer.

What schools should do is have POST-lottery open houses that are really easy for interested parents to get to.

Like 12pm on a Saturday or something really accessible.

So that they can see others in a similar boat who are interested in possibly getting into that DCPS school, so they don't just have to think the worst and act on that because they don't have any information beyond "FARMS percentages" and 3rd grade test scores.

Original Ward 4 poster here who tried to rally parents. They could do what you suggest or, you know, they could hold an open house at all. Our IB school never even held an open house, nor did they return my phone calls asking to come visit the school. We moved in right before our child's 1st birthday so I thought I would have time to build a relationship and get to know the school. My initial outreach was met with radio silence. That was when I tried to rally other parents thinking that if a group of us showed interest they would have to respond. Perhaps they'd had the same initial experience as me, which accounted for the total lack of interest.

IME, the neighborhood schools that have been the most successful are those who have proactively reached out to the community. Why my IB school doesn't do that is beyond me.

Wow, what school was this?

[Anonymous]

Fair enough, I guess. I got free meals in public school and didn't need anyone working double time to get me up to speed. Sure, is anecdotal, but it seems weird to me that someone would not at least consider their in bounds school beyond knowing how many kids get free meals.

There's no question that low SES (in DC parlance, FARMS) kids can achieve. But evidence suggests that as a group they are most successful when the class is less than 50% FARMS. Conversely, when a class is more than 50% FARMS, outcomes are worse for all kids.

This is a cautionary tale to those that think charters are the answer (separate and apart from teh admissions issues) - unless you are in a charter that uses the unsavory practice of "counseling out" low SES kids, or making them feel otherwise unwelcome, you're going to run into this issue over. My kids are in a very highly-sought after charter - one of those previously mentioned in this thread - and it's not all sunshine and roses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Really, where? I have no in-boundary PS-3, because I live in Zone 3. I've had similarly poor luck with the Out-of-Boundary PS-3 lottery, though my waitlist number for Tyler is in the low 30s--not likely, but not a joke. True, I didn't apply to certain poorly regarded charters and public OOBs, but failing schools aren't a resource that I want, and they are not the resource that I was referring to above. The point is that many (possibly most) DC families do not have access to any of the well-regarded public options, EL Haynes, Two Rivers, Mundo Verde, LAMB, Creative Minds, Cap City, etc. They might as well not exist to us. OP was completely right about that.

Wait, so you have no in boundary school? What will you do come kindergarten?

No IB for ps3, no guaranteed spot for pk4.

(And from me, no sympathy re "failing schools aren't a resource I want." My son had an incredible year in a Title I school. The Head Start curricum, which I believe is now used in all ps3 programs, is proven. I would never hesitate to send a child tp ps3 or pk4 anywhere in the city. And unlike you, I don't have a decent ib school once k comes around.)

[Anonymous]

Original Ward 4 poster here who tried to rally parents. They could do what you suggest or, you know, they could hold an open house at all. Our IB school never even held an open house, nor did they return my phone calls asking to come visit the school. We moved in right before our child's 1st birthday so I thought I would have time to build a relationship and get to know the school. My initial outreach was met with radio silence. That was when I tried to rally other parents thinking that if a group of us showed interest they would have to respond. Perhaps they'd had the same initial experience as me, which accounted for the total lack of interest.

[google]

Same thing happened in my neighborhood - my youngest is now in 6th grade at a charter school, but when we were looking for pre-K options, our neighborhood school wouldn't even let us come see the facility. We (and other neighborhood parents) were told that the school wasn't interested in parent involvement, they would run the school the way they wanted to. Of course, that was pre-Michelle Rhee, that principal is now gone, and our IB school is well on it's way to becoming a great school with a fantastic new principal who is interested in engaging the neighborhood. I applaud those parents who were able to help create good schools from the outside, but you need someone on the inside to be supportive as well.

[Anonymous]

+1. In charters, even the non- FARMS kids come from less educated families than you would expect. Yes, even white kids whose parents have HS GED or bachelor's from an easy college.

Anonymous wrote:

Fair enough, I guess. I got free meals in public school and didn't need anyone working double time to get me up to speed. Sure, is anecdotal, but it seems weird to me that someone would not at least consider their in bounds school beyond knowing how many kids get free meals.

There's no question that low SES (in DC parlance, FARMS) kids can achieve. But evidence suggests that as a group they are most successful when the class is less than 50% FARMS. Conversely, when a class is more than 50% FARMS, outcomes are worse for all kids.

This is a cautionary tale to those that think charters are the answer (separate and apart from teh admissions issues) - unless you are in a charter that uses the unsavory practice of "counseling out" low SES kids, or making them feel otherwise unwelcome, you're going to run into this issue over. My kids are in a very highly-sought after charter - one of those previously mentioned in this thread - and it's not all sunshine and roses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1. In charters, even the non- FARMS kids come from less educated families than you would expect. Yes, even white kids whose parents have HS GED or bachelor's from an easy college.

Anonymous wrote:

Fair enough, I guess. I got free meals in public school and didn't need anyone working double time to get me up to speed. Sure, is anecdotal, but it seems weird to me that someone would not at least consider their in bounds school beyond knowing how many kids get free meals.

There's no question that low SES (in DC parlance, FARMS) kids can achieve. But evidence suggests that as a group they are most successful when the class is less than 50% FARMS. Conversely, when a class is more than 50% FARMS, outcomes are worse for all kids.

This is a cautionary tale to those that think charters are the answer (separate and apart from teh admissions issues) - unless you are in a charter that uses the unsavory practice of "counseling out" low SES kids, or making them feel otherwise unwelcome, you're going to run into this issue over. My kids are in a very highly-sought after charter - one of those previously mentioned in this thread - and it's not all sunshine and roses.

And you know this how? We love our charter and feel like our family fits right in - two Ivy educated lawyers. Our kid is biracial, Asian/White, are there are many similar families like us and many unlike us why is another reason we chose it over private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1. In charters, even the non- FARMS kids come from less educated families than you would expect. Yes, even white kids whose parents have HS GED or bachelor's from an easy college.

Anonymous wrote:

Fair enough, I guess. I got free meals in public school and didn't need anyone working double time to get me up to speed. Sure, is anecdotal, but it seems weird to me that someone would not at least consider their in bounds school beyond knowing how many kids get free meals.

There's no question that low SES (in DC parlance, FARMS) kids can achieve. But evidence suggests that as a group they are most successful when the class is less than 50% FARMS. Conversely, when a class is more than 50% FARMS, outcomes are worse for all kids.

This is a cautionary tale to those that think charters are the answer (separate and apart from teh admissions issues) - unless you are in a charter that uses the unsavory practice of "counseling out" low SES kids, or making them feel otherwise unwelcome, you're going to run into this issue over. My kids are in a very highly-sought after charter - one of those previously mentioned in this thread - and it's not all sunshine and roses.

And you know this how? We love our charter and feel like our family fits right in - two Ivy educated lawyers. Our kid is biracial, Asian/White, are there are many similar families like us and many unlike us why is another reason we chose it over private schools.

I agree. We are two college-educated professionals in a charter and it is a broad SES mix that doesn't necessarily break down HHI-wise by race/ethnicity like most people assume. My kid is doing great. He actually has a greater need on the social/emotional side and they are doing a great job on that front. I'm glad he has a diverse mix of kids to socialize with. This is in contrast to our IB school which would have been 99% AA/1% Hispanic and majority FARMS with low test scores and an administration that can't even bother to return my fucking phone call as a neighbor and a prospective parent. That is not diversity by any measure. I wasn't about to plop my pale blond kid in that environment as the only one IN THE ENTIRE SCHOOL, especially when their attitude was less than welcoming. I feel pretty confident that the parent population at my charter is overall better educated than my IB school and has a better attitude/work ethic about school. Is it all "sunshine and roses?" No. Is it better than our other alternatives? Oh hell yes. Yes it is.

[Anonymous]

I know this because you get to know the other parents at your school. There are highly educated folks too, but don't assume white=highly educated. I've found more Ivy lawyers in Upper NW or private school in my experience. no?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1. In charters, even the non- FARMS kids come from less educated families than you would expect. Yes, even white kids whose parents have HS GED or bachelor's from an easy college.

Anonymous wrote:

Fair enough, I guess. I got free meals in public school and didn't need anyone working double time to get me up to speed. Sure, is anecdotal, but it seems weird to me that someone would not at least consider their in bounds school beyond knowing how many kids get free meals.

There's no question that low SES (in DC parlance, FARMS) kids can achieve. But evidence suggests that as a group they are most successful when the class is less than 50% FARMS. Conversely, when a class is more than 50% FARMS, outcomes are worse for all kids.

This is a cautionary tale to those that think charters are the answer (separate and apart from teh admissions issues) - unless you are in a charter that uses the unsavory practice of "counseling out" low SES kids, or making them feel otherwise unwelcome, you're going to run into this issue over. My kids are in a very highly-sought after charter - one of those previously mentioned in this thread - and it's not all sunshine and roses.

And you know this how? We love our charter and feel like our family fits right in - two Ivy educated lawyers. Our kid is biracial, Asian/White, are there are many similar families like us and many unlike us why is another reason we chose it over private schools.

[Anonymous]

^^BTW, I just want to add that both our teacher AND the administration of our charter have exceeded our expectations beyond our wildest dreams. Doubt I could claim that of the clusterfuck at my IB school and within the chancellor's office.