Will the ranting atheists please stand down?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, he quoted some scripture that said that. He probably had to quote scripture, given it was a religious service. Not only do I think 22:54 stated it beautifully, I think Obama's an atheist and would agree with him/her.

Interesting. You think he is completely faking his Christianity? What makes you believe that? He's too smart to believe in God?

Yes. That, and when he has been put on the spot to talk about religion in the past, he brings up how the church was a force for good during the civil rights movement -- social justice reasons, rather than faith reasons. Which is also what I would talk about if I were running for president in this country since coming out as an atheist would be political suicide. And he's never had long-term ties to any particular church. But, yes, mainly because he's logical (i.e. "smart") in his approach to issues.

Fascinating. Thank you, PP. I learned something new today.

Quick question: what would the civil rights movement have been without appeals to natural law, the Lawgiver, I.e., God? Could you rewrite MLK's speeches without appeals to a Higher Power?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Where was God on Friday? That's what I want to know. On vacation? All this talk of God's mercy and God's love - where was He when innocent babies were being slaughtered

Crying. That's truly what I believe. His heart is broken. These were His children first.

God gave man free will. With that gift comes the power to choose evil. God never promised us an easy life. There is pain, sorrow, and hurt all around us. God did promise to remain with us. He demonstrated that perfect love when His own Son was brutally murdered. Why doesn't he step in and stop horrible things from happening? I'm not sure. But I think we are here on earth to learn to love each other. We are supposed to figure this stuff out by our own free will, not because He forces us to behave a certain way. Unfortunately, most people (myself included) haven't even come close to figuring it out.

"God" (in pretty much every religion) said- Love each other. That's the single most important thing we need to learn. When we figure that out, the world will heal.

Thank you, PP. This is exactly what God is about and what we should be striving for each day. I wish I could have expressed this as well as you did here.

Atheist here- but I concur. That "faith, hope love...and the greatest of these is love" excerpt from 13:1 Corinthians? It is talking about your love for your fellow human being. Greater than your faith in god should be your love for humanity. To me, this is a pretty clear message that God never, ever intended for human beings to harm one another in the name of faith or religion. Other religions have similar scripture as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Materialism only gets you so far, PP.

Yes, I agree. It does not get me to a place where I can imagine a heaven into being. But I definitely understand why people have done so. The first time my sweet little girl asked me in tears, what happens when people die, I lied my ass off to her, and told her all about God and heaven. I know it is all a myth, but I couldn't bear to tell my child the sad truth.

I'm sure that the same impulse is what caused our various societies throughout history to invent the concept of an afterlife and God. Our brains need to make meaning out of noise. It is what we do while alive, and we do it very very well. We did it with the Egyptian myths, the Greek myths, the Hindu myths, the Norse myths, the Zoroastrian myths, the Hebrew myths. The Catholic myths on which I was raised are just another addition to the cycle or stories.

I realize why people need these myths, and I don't blame you for seeking them and promoting them, and if you are able to believe, I don't wonder that you pity those of us who realize they aren't true. If I were you, I'd feel the same way about me.

But I don't hate you, nor do I mock you, nor do I seek out believers to destroy their faith (not that you can -- there is no argument against faith, because it is not based on logic.)

PP, this is OP, and I have appreciated your thoughtful posts. You remind me of myself.

All I can say is that all of your doubts are reasonable and valid. Not only did I share all of them, I still do. There is a constant running stream of doubt with me, always.

Faith is ultimately an act of will and a gift you accept. Today, I will offer up my various moments of doubt for you. I know you would not believe in that concept, either--that we can lift one another up, that grace abounds. But that's ok. God has the eternal perspective we lack. And He is with you.

My daughter's questions also required answers. As Obama said last night, we need the faith of a child to begin to understand our Creator. Your daughter's faith is real. My daughter's faith was, too. It began to show me the way.

If you seek the truth, you will find it. And you are a truth-seeker, clearly, from your posts. In His time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Google "argument from conscience."

Well, it's nice that philosophers think that my intuition proves the existence of God. I don't - necessarily - agree.

I think human intelligence gives us a capacity to observe the pain in others, and to feel it ourselves by proxy, and to abhor that pain and the idea of causing it to others. Watching others in pain causes a physical response in me, as I'm sure it does in others - an ability to feel, in some small measure, what the other person is feeling, and to want to make that pain go away. I suppose it COULD be "God" who gave us our empathy. Or it could be a simple consequence of our intelligence.

Being empathic allows humans to cooperate and work together as a society. Natural selection would have encouraged this trait throughout our history.

Unless you are an unbalanced, homicidal loner.

Or a clever egomaniac.

Or a powerful dictator.

Or a sadist.

But then, it doesn't matter who their victims are, because it's just the circle of life, the coming together and falling apart of chaotic cosmic dust. Some people are lucky enough to randomly be conceived in a group of humans who cooperate. Others, not so lucky. But there is no meaning to it all. Just circumstance.

Yes. If you do research on the prevalence of sociopathy in humans - about 1 in four people are sociopaths - there are interesting evolutionary ideas about how this trait is favored for selection. Basically there are two effective survival strategies. cooperation vs. selfish, winner-take-all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The idea I have seen making the rounds among my religious friends - the suggestion that a loving God would abandon a bunch of six year olds to being shot to death because of political correctness in schools or a phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance is.... repugnant. Jaw droppingly reprehensible.

If that is your God I want no part of him.

I'm a Christian and I agree completely with you. The God that I follow doesn't punish people in this way. I'm dreading Christmas with my family, as they're the exact hell fire and brimstone Christians that are calling this heinous act a punishment by God.

[Anonymous]

The God that I follow doesn't punish people in this way.

God does not punish - God is love. Any other interpretation, belief, whatever, is not about God. Anyone suggesting that God somehow punished these innocent children because of some political position created by humans does not understand God's love. That just isn't how God works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But I know heaven, the afterlife, doesn't exist.

How do you KNOW?

Well, it depends what you mean by afterlife. But the kind of afterlife I learned about as a child, where your soul was somehow up in heaven, looking down on your loved ones, remember them, I know cannot exist. Memories and thoughts are conducted in the brain; they require neurons and synapses, and those disintegrate and decompose when the body dies. So there is no way for your memories to go with "you" when you die.

So if you want to think of the "afterlife" as the place where your atoms get recycled into other things, then yes I can see that there is an afterlife, of course. But otherwise, not.

Materialism only gets you so far, PP.

What does this even mean? Only gets you so far? Toward what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Google "argument from conscience."

Well, it's nice that philosophers think that my intuition proves the existence of God. I don't - necessarily - agree.

I think human intelligence gives us a capacity to observe the pain in others, and to feel it ourselves by proxy, and to abhor that pain and the idea of causing it to others. Watching others in pain causes a physical response in me, as I'm sure it does in others - an ability to feel, in some small measure, what the other person is feeling, and to want to make that pain go away. I suppose it COULD be "God" who gave us our empathy. Or it could be a simple consequence of our intelligence.

Being empathic allows humans to cooperate and work together as a society. Natural selection would have encouraged this trait throughout our history.

Unless you are an unbalanced, homicidal loner.

Or a clever egomaniac.

Or a powerful dictator.

Or a sadist.

But then, it doesn't matter who their victims are, because it's just the circle of life, the coming together and falling apart of chaotic cosmic dust. Some people are lucky enough to randomly be conceived in a group of humans who cooperate. Others, not so lucky. But there is no meaning to it all. Just circumstance.

Yes, exactly. You finally understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, he quoted some scripture that said that. He probably had to quote scripture, given it was a religious service. Not only do I think 22:54 stated it beautifully, I think Obama's an atheist and would agree with him/her.

Interesting. You think he is completely faking his Christianity? What makes you believe that? He's too smart to believe in God?

Yes. That, and when he has been put on the spot to talk about religion in the past, he brings up how the church was a force for good during the civil rights movement -- social justice reasons, rather than faith reasons. Which is also what I would talk about if I were running for president in this country since coming out as an atheist would be political suicide. And he's never had long-term ties to any particular church. But, yes, mainly because he's logical (i.e. "smart") in his approach to issues.

Fascinating. Thank you, PP. I learned something new today.

Quick question: what would the civil rights movement have been without appeals to natural law, the Lawgiver, I.e., God? Could you rewrite MLK's speeches without appeals to a Higher Power?

It would have been Brown v. Board of Education.

No one's saying that appeals to religion and higher powers aren't rhetorically powerfully. They're just not logically powerful. There's a big difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
PP, this is OP, and I have appreciated your thoughtful posts. You remind me of myself.

All I can say is that all of your doubts are reasonable and valid. Not only did I share all of them, I still do. There is a constant running stream of doubt with me, always.

Faith is ultimately an act of will and a gift you accept. Today, I will offer up my various moments of doubt for you. I know you would not believe in that concept, either--that we can lift one another up, that grace abounds. But that's ok. God has the eternal perspective we lack. And He is with you.

My daughter's questions also required answers. As Obama said last night, we need the faith of a child to begin to understand our Creator. Your daughter's faith is real. My daughter's faith was, too. It began to show me the way.

If you seek the truth, you will find it. And you are a truth-seeker, clearly, from your posts. In His time.

Thank you, OP.

FWIW, I do believe that faith is real. It is as real as any other form of cognition we have.

And if your faith leads you to lead a kind life and to bring joy and peace and caring to the world, then I do believe we could life one another up.

[Anonymous]

I'm Agnostic and I believe that the people you're referring to are "assholes." They come in all religions, races and creeds. Their atheism isn't the cause of their problem. It's just the vehicle they use to drive you crazy. The same can be said for Christians who comment on violent stories and say something negative like "God hates fags" or some other nonsense.

I've had just as many frustrating experiences with atheists as I have die hard Christians. Assholes are assholes regardless of beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no comfort to be found in this. Either there is a God and he failed those children or their isn't a God and the children are dead and that is it. I don't know what side of the fence I fall on, to be honest. I think it all sucks.

Agreed.

But the former possibility allows for hope, and faith, and love conquering all.

The latter position is only despair, because then violence and senseless destruction would ALWAYS be stronger than love. Murderers would live well, while innocent children would be nothing more than fodder. All of us would be nothing more than atoms, and justice and love would be fantasies, rather than reality.

Any thinking, feeling human being would be tempted to despair sometimes. But we can choose to have faith in God, choose to hope in justice and mercy, and choose to love.

I choose faith, hope, and love.

I could choose to do that, but it wouldn't be authentic. I could go through the motions but the fact is I don't feel it in my heart. I really, really wish I could. I think things would be much easier if I could just choose to believe. But I can't seem to turn my heart in that direction, no matter how badly I want to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm Agnostic and I believe that the people you're referring to are "assholes." They come in all religions, races and creeds. Their atheism isn't the cause of their problem. It's just the vehicle they use to drive you crazy. The same can be said for Christians who comment on violent stories and say something negative like "God hates fags" or some other nonsense.

I've had just as many frustrating experiences with atheists as I have die hard Christians. Assholes are assholes regardless of beliefs.

I agree. It's not a question of what they believe, but rather whether they're jerks. Jerks can come from all backgrounds, and are no more or less likely to be religious.

For OP, you probably would initiate a more productive discussion if you'd refrain from referring to nonreligious people as "ranting atheists." I know that's a common epithet here on DCUM -- I've even been accused once or twice of being "the ranting atheist" simply for disagreeing with something some religious person said -- but it's offensive regardless. So please stop. I assume you'd be similarly -- and rightfully -- offended if someone started a thread about the "raving Christians."

[Anonymous]

I didn't read all 8 pages, but I agree with you OP and the immediate PPs saying assholes are assholes and they come in all shapes and sizes and religions. I'm an atheist and I will say this - I envy people their faith during times like these. I truly do. I wish sometimes that I had it. I don't, and dare I say I never will. But I am so glad for people that they have it to rely on during such terrible times.

[Anonymous]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/18/james-dobson-blames-gays-and-abortion-for-newtown-massacre/