"white trash" - racist?

[TheManWithAUsername]

Anonymous wrote:Your example is a little confusing in the context of politics, because there's such a reflexive liberal vs. conservative dichotomy.

That's why I picked it, actually - we usually (and historically) consider non-whites to be black, even though that's not quite right (and in fact, quite inaccurate now). I don't think it really matters, though; if there's the secondary implication I suggest, it's for "non-whites," "non-liberal politicians," "non-neighbors," etc.

Anonymous wrote:Referring to my "SMART neighbor" probably implies that other neighbors are stupid. But it doesn't necessarily imply that all non-neighbors are smart.

While I don't think it necessarily implies something about non-neighbors (see below), I do think that it does imply it by the normal use of language.

Using your analogy, let's say the statement is, "I actually met a SMART neighbor yesterday." If the speaker thought that not just neighbors but all people in general were generally stupid, s/he would say, "I actually met a SMART person yesterday." If the speaker wanted to include the additional information about the person s/he would say, "I actually met a SMART person yesterday - my neighbor, as it happens," or similar.

I'm happy to stick with your phrase, but we can tweak it to a context that I think will leave little question: "I met a SMART woman today." I think just about anyone would understand that to imply that the speaker thinks that men are generally smarter than women.

Anonymous wrote:There's some technical name for this sort of deductive logical fallacy, but I can't remember what it is.

I'm not talking about logically diagramming these statements. I realize that these statements don't necessarily imply those things as a logical matter. I'm talking about normal use of language, and I think we left statement diagramming way in the dust when we started talking about which word deserved emphasis.

Anonymous wrote:BTW, I'm kind of enjoying how this exchange is getting me thinking about linguistics and logical fallacies, which are two things I don't get to consider very often.

Glad to hear it. I assume we're boring the hell out of anyone still reading, but I'm still game.

[Anonymous]

I think I see where we're missing one another. Most of your examples are based on implications and assumptions about the speaker, which are based not on the actual language being used or the way it's phrased, but rather on stereotypes about the kind of person who would make such a statement. For example:

"I met a SMART liberal politician." We seem to agree that sentence suggests that many liberal politicians are dumb, because of the emphasis on "SMART" as if it's notable. But you think it further implies that non-liberal politicians are smart, because you assume that the kind of person who would make such a crack about liberal politicians must be anti-liberal and pro-conservative.

"I met a SMART woman today." Again, we'd agree that sentence suggests many women the speaker meets are dumb. But you take it further, and believe just about anyone would understand that to imply that the speaker thinks that men are generally smarter than women. Why? Because you assume that anyone who would imply such a thing about women must be chauvinist. I'm betting you even picture an Archie Bunker type man saying it.

But I am focused just on the words themselves, and am not making additional judgments based on stereotypes about the sort of person who might say them, or the context in which they arise. For example, in the politician example, what if the speaker were Barney Frank? I could certainly envision him castigating his fellow Dems, but not necessarily holding Repubs in any higher esteem. And for the woman example, what if the speaker is a woman, and perhaps even an ardent feminist? She'd be criticizing other women (perhaps for succumbing to the patriarchy), but not promoting men by implication.

Where am I going with all this? I think a similar situation occurs when an 1830s black slave uses the phrase "white TRASH." She's certainly speaking negatively about the trashy white person, and differentiating from the non-trashy white person. But I don't think she's implying anything about black people.

And similarly, when many modern people use the phrase, I think they also are putting the emphasis on "trash" and not on skin color (and also unthinkingly repeating a phrase they've heard many times), so I don't think they're intending to imply anything about race. Of course, for the reasons I described earlier, I still agree with you that it's a poor phrase to use, and should be avoided.

[Anonymous]

Yes. I might refer to a person being "trashy" but it bothers me a lot to hear people throw that term around.

[Anonymous]

As my family always says: The only thing we like better than being called "white trash," is being called "white trash with money."

[TheManWithAUsername]

Anonymous wrote:I think I see where we're missing one another. Most of your examples are based on implications and assumptions about the speaker, which are based not on the actual language being used or the way it's phrased, but rather on stereotypes about the kind of person who would make such a statement.

Definitely not. For the original example, I think "white trash" is a common, old phrase, and that most people don't think about whether it carries any implications. Therefore, I really don't think anything about people who use it, and I wouldn't think to categorize them. When I've been uncomfortable hearing it, it's been a response to the term alone, not the speaker.

Anonymous wrote:"I met a SMART woman today." Again, we'd agree that sentence suggests many women the speaker meets are dumb.

Well, I think it suggests that the norm for women - not just "many women" - is dumb.

Anonymous wrote:But you take it further, and believe just about anyone would understand that to imply that the speaker thinks that men are generally smarter than women. Why? Because you assume that anyone who would imply such a thing about women must be chauvinist. I'm betting you even picture an Archie Bunker type man saying it.

A little bit, but think about it - why would did Archie Bunker even occur to you? Because the statement has sexist implications. More below.

Anonymous wrote:And for the woman example, what if the speaker is a woman, and perhaps even an ardent feminist? She'd be criticizing other women (perhaps for succumbing to the patriarchy), but not promoting men by implication.

How can you criticize women and not promote men by implication? I.e., whenever you attach a relative adjective to a class, you necessarily imply the opposite about those not in the class, because a relative adjective has no meaning without that comparison.

"Women are stupid" = men are smarter
"Men are messy" = women are neater
"Scandinavians are tall" = others are shorter

I'm in a business meeting, and I say, "Boy, women are stupid." Everyone looks at me, aghast. I say, "What? I'm not saying men aren't just as stupid!" I'm getting fired.

Even flip it. I'm in the meeting, and I say, "Men sure are smart." I think I'd get pretty similar looks, though perhaps not with jaws agape. Then I say, "Of course, that's not to say that women aren't just as smart." That's not going to fly.

To your examples, if Barney Frank said, "Democrats are stupid," I would absolutely think that he was implying that Republicans are smarter. (Given nothing else, I would assume that he was speaking in the context of a particular strategy or issue.) If an ardent feminist said, "Women are stupid," I would find it bizarre and assume that she misspoke or, again, that she was speaking about a very particular issue, because I think the implication about men versus women is inherent in the use of the adjective. If the context were more limited, and she were to say "Women are stupid in relationships," I absolutely would interpret that to mean that men are smarter about relationships, that men think about them more logically or something.

I've asked a semi-rhetorical question a few times that you haven't addressed. If someone thinks that all politicians are stupid, why not say "I met a SMART politician" today, instead of "a SMART liberal politician?" Similarly, why not "a SMART person" instead of "a smart woman," and, to the original issue, why not say, "that is one trashy person" instead of "that is one trashy white person?"

[Anonymous]

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think I see where we're missing one another. Most of your examples are based on implications and assumptions about the speaker, which are based not on the actual language being used or the way it's phrased, but rather on stereotypes about the kind of person who would make such a statement.

Definitely not. For the original example, I think "white trash" is a common, old phrase, and that most people don't think about whether it carries any implications. Therefore, I really don't think anything about people who use it, and I wouldn't think to categorize them. When I've been uncomfortable hearing it, it's been a response to the term alone, not the speaker.

Anonymous wrote:"I met a SMART woman today." Again, we'd agree that sentence suggests many women the speaker meets are dumb.

Well, I think it suggests that the norm for women - not just "many women" - is dumb.

Anonymous wrote:But you take it further, and believe just about anyone would understand that to imply that the speaker thinks that men are generally smarter than women. Why? Because you assume that anyone who would imply such a thing about women must be chauvinist. I'm betting you even picture an Archie Bunker type man saying it.

A little bit, but think about it - why would did Archie Bunker even occur to you? Because the statement has sexist implications. More below.

Anonymous wrote:And for the woman example, what if the speaker is a woman, and perhaps even an ardent feminist? She'd be criticizing other women (perhaps for succumbing to the patriarchy), but not promoting men by implication.

How can you criticize women and not promote men by implication? I.e., whenever you attach a relative adjective to a class, you necessarily imply the opposite about those not in the class, because a relative adjective has no meaning without that comparison.

"Women are stupid" = men are smarter
"Men are messy" = women are neater
"Scandinavians are tall" = others are shorter

I'm in a business meeting, and I say, "Boy, women are stupid." Everyone looks at me, aghast. I say, "What? I'm not saying men aren't just as stupid!" I'm getting fired.

Even flip it. I'm in the meeting, and I say, "Men sure are smart." I think I'd get pretty similar looks, though perhaps not with jaws agape. Then I say, "Of course, that's not to say that women aren't just as smart." That's not going to fly.

To your examples, if Barney Frank said, "Democrats are stupid," I would absolutely think that he was implying that Republicans are smarter. (Given nothing else, I would assume that he was speaking in the context of a particular strategy or issue.) If an ardent feminist said, "Women are stupid," I would find it bizarre and assume that she misspoke or, again, that she was speaking about a very particular issue, because I think the implication about men versus women is inherent in the use of the adjective. If the context were more limited, and she were to say "Women are stupid in relationships," I absolutely would interpret that to mean that men are smarter about relationships, that men think about them more logically or something.

I've asked a semi-rhetorical question a few times that you haven't addressed. If someone thinks that all politicians are stupid, why not say "I met a SMART politician" today, instead of "a SMART liberal politician?" Similarly, why not "a SMART person" instead of "a smart woman," and, to the original issue, why not say, "that is one trashy person" instead of "that is one trashy white person?"

Are we allowed to say something on the order of, "Germans are great engineers! They really know how to build a world-class car with the Mercedes, BMW, etc."

[Anonymous]

Calling any group of human beings trash is simply awful. I object anytime I hear the term"white trash." Poverty does not make anyone "trash."

[TheManWithAUsername]

Anonymous wrote:Are we allowed to say something on the order of, "Germans are great engineers! They really know how to build a world-class car with the Mercedes, BMW, etc."

I haven't said anything about what anyone is allowed to say. Knock yourself out.

You quoted a very long post from me, so I'm not sure to what you're question relates. Let me know, and I'll be happy to respond.