Do all these APs really pay off/matter?

[Anonymous]

It’s a matrix:
- at elite private schools APs are important for admissions (if your high school offers them, and with the caveat that there is a point of diminishing returns), but they don’t earn many credits
- at public schools APs are rarely necessary for admissions but can easily earn you 1–2 years of credits
- at low-ranking private schools and high-ranking public schools APs are useful for both admissions and credits

[Anonymous]

At DD's NOVA public, you will be in class with kids not planning to go to college if you take the gen ed classes. It's best to have a mix of easier and harder APs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

[Anonymous]

How many AP can one take? I assume there are only 3 semesters, fall, winter and spring? The earliest age to take AP is 9th grader? So, AP is better than Honor?

I am not from here? I am confused with a these AP, honors, electives and different paths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

I’m not so sure about that. A lot of kids at HYPS, at least, come from elite private schools that don’t offer APs. Meanwhile UNC is mostly kids from North Carolina, where even the private schools are the non-elite kind that do offer APs.

It’s different populations of admits. The discussion is not about schools that don’t offer APs, it’s about APs having significance for admissions. Just because Andover doesn’t have APs, it doesn’t mean they are not considered for schools that offer them.

Check your kids high school profile, I bet it mentions AP courses offered, GPA bump, and how students do in them. It tells colleges about course rigor and how students compare against each other. If it didn’t matter that much they wouldn’t bother with that information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bradwschiller_ap-exam-scores-matter-a-lot-for-ivy-and-equivalent-activity-7330914031760732160-VdsE
This guy with a college admissions company claims that the average Harvard admit took 6 exams before applying with a 4.7 average score (out of 5). Rejected applicants took 4 exams with a 4.4 average score. He doesn't cite the source, but if he says it's 6 exams before applying, that must mean they have 6 AP Scores by junior year. Most students also take APs their senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How many AP can one take? I assume there are only 3 semesters, fall, winter and spring? The earliest age to take AP is 9th grader? So, AP is better than Honor?

I am not from here? I am confused with a these AP, honors, electives and different paths.

Most AP courses are full year. Some are one semester each. AP exams are given in May.

It will make more sense if you look at the high school's course catalog so you can see prerequisite courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

Well by all means extrapolate from your high school to all the others

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bradwschiller_ap-exam-scores-matter-a-lot-for-ivy-and-equivalent-activity-7330914031760732160-VdsE
This guy with a college admissions company claims that the average Harvard admit took 6 exams before applying with a 4.7 average score (out of 5). Rejected applicants took 4 exams with a 4.4 average score. He doesn't cite the source, but if he says it's 6 exams before applying, that must mean they have 6 AP Scores by junior year. Most students also take APs their senior year.

Where did he get that data from? Harvard isn’t publishing it - I’ll believe that when it’s not from a source as reliable as this forum

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

Well by all means extrapolate from your high school to all the others

Definitely extrapolate if the sample is representative, you seem to be very confused about the concept.

Hopefully this fact will help your understanding. More than 400,000 students have an AP count of 6+.

It’s not a good way to sort out students if you don’t discriminate past 6 APs.

Yet, MIT, Caltech and many others are very clear that students are required to send all their AP scores. They obviously think that information is useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

Well by all means extrapolate from your high school to all the others

Definitely extrapolate if the sample is representative, you seem to be very confused about the concept.

Hopefully this fact will help your understanding. More than 400,000 students have an AP count of 6+.

It’s not a good way to sort out students if you don’t discriminate past 6 APs.

Yet, MIT, Caltech and many others are very clear that students are required to send all their AP scores. They obviously think that information is useful.

You have no idea whether a single school’s sample is representative of the whole

Sending AP scores doesn’t translate into it being a significant factor anymore than any other part of the application nor is there any evidence that it’s used to sort within a high school school or between high schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How many AP can one take? I assume there are only 3 semesters, fall, winter and spring? The earliest age to take AP is 9th grader? So, AP is better than Honor?

I am not from here? I am confused with a these AP, honors, electives and different paths.

It’s going to vary significantly from high school to high school. Some privates don’t even offer them, and some limit how many can be taken and when, or put rigorous prerequisites on them, for example. Plus, students can self-study and take AP exams without taking the corresponding class (whether or not their school offers that AP).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

Well by all means extrapolate from your high school to all the others

Definitely extrapolate if the sample is representative, you seem to be very confused about the concept.

Hopefully this fact will help your understanding. More than 400,000 students have an AP count of 6+.

It’s not a good way to sort out students if you don’t discriminate past 6 APs.

Yet, MIT, Caltech and many others are very clear that students are required to send all their AP scores. They obviously think that information is useful.

You have no idea whether a single school’s sample is representative of the whole

Sending AP scores doesn’t translate into it being a significant factor anymore than any other part of the application nor is there any evidence that it’s used to sort within a high school school or between high schools

You do know if you’re not a complete moron who doesn’t know how to interpret data.

AP scholar with distinction is 5 exams, nationally that’s 700,000 out of 4,000,000 students, or 18% according to College Board data.

Our high school is 25% AP scholars, reasonably close to national average. If you consider the population of students applying to college that skews higher grades, more advanced coursework, and 90% of students at our school do, the school is representative.

[Anonymous]

yes, matters, not just for admissions but also for intellectual HS experience

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

In case you’re wondering, 25% of students at our high school get AP scholar with 5 exams. They end up at schools like UNC. Needless to say the ones ending at top 20 schools have significantly more APs.

Well by all means extrapolate from your high school to all the others

Definitely extrapolate if the sample is representative, you seem to be very confused about the concept.

Hopefully this fact will help your understanding. More than 400,000 students have an AP count of 6+.

It’s not a good way to sort out students if you don’t discriminate past 6 APs.

Yet, MIT, Caltech and many others are very clear that students are required to send all their AP scores. They obviously think that information is useful.

You have no idea whether a single school’s sample is representative of the whole

Sending AP scores doesn’t translate into it being a significant factor anymore than any other part of the application nor is there any evidence that it’s used to sort within a high school school or between high schools

You do know if you’re not a complete moron who doesn’t know how to interpret data.

AP scholar with distinction is 5 exams, nationally that’s 700,000 out of 4,000,000 students, or 18% according to College Board data.

Our high school is 25% AP scholars, reasonably close to national average. If you consider the population of students applying to college that skews higher grades, more advanced coursework, and 90% of students at our school do, the school is representative.

You can call me all the names you want but you’re making a huge, unsupported leap between a loose correlation in the percentage of AP scholars nationally to your school to a general statement that all college admissions must therefore resemble that of your school. That’s even assuming you have enough years of data about the admissions at your school to show some kind of pattern there.

I know schools where students take an average of 3-5 AP classes and 20% go to top 15 schools. But I’m not going to say this is representative of the whole. I guess you would.