Do all these APs really pay off/matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

That's obviously a lie, unless the school has very few APs available.

There are 40 AP subjects.

And if you define "available" as "all AP options for core classes and electives", then thousands of kids do that, and many, many of them go to 3/5/10/20 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I expect most colleges treat APAAS as equivalent to AP Euro. Both are social studies electives outside the core curriculum, and both cover subjects which some students may be drawn to because of their family background, but which might also be useful or enriching for anyone to study.

You could argue that one course is more rigorous than the other, but it’s hard for me to see why a college would want to draw that conclusion. The actual quality of the courses presumably varies by teacher and by high school, as is typical for APs.

It is a blatantly racist concept (and more than a little offensive!), to claim AP European history is in any way inferior to AP African American Studies.

[Anonymous]

My kid was accepted early to HYPSM and took only what they felt were the more challenging and relevant APs. So no easier ones like Environmental Science, Psychology, Stats.

They did take APs in every core subject and as a STEM applicant, also every other science AP, along with Calc BC and AP Computer Science.

I feel that APs did matter in terms of showing rigor, especially coming from a public school. But taking every possible AP available? Not necessary imo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

Yes, if taking APs is your strength then you should take a lot. But that's not going to move the needle for a top school. There are many students who are accepted to HYPS with less than 12 APs, mine included. The point is, don't stress if you can't squeeze in that last AP to get you to 12 AP classes.

The point is there’s a continuum for a good number of AP, which is simplistic because it doesn’t take into account their relative difficulty, full year vs semester, scores etc.

Having less than 7 APs for HYPSM will not end up favorably since we’re already talking about half a million students that have these stats and a substantial subset of them will also meet metrics from other areas like athletics and extracurriculars.

My guess is 10 APs is fine if decent in other areas, 7 APs is ok too if the rest of the application is strong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aim for an AP in each core subject, plus a few more. You do not need all of them, nor does anyone need 12-18 APs to be admitted. Even at high schools offering lots of APs, if you take 8-10 rigorous ones, that's sufficient for most top schools. The less rigorous ones don't add value for admission.

The exception to this is that less rigorous APs nonetheless add a point for the weighted GPA, which can affect class rank or rank by decile or quartile.

Top college admission is not a race to the most APs. You need some, yes, and they should be rigorous ones. There is a rough - but not exact - minimum and that will vary by student. There is a balance. You do not need "the most possible," that is NOT how it works. Be careful what you read, because the general mentality of being "impressive," winning contests and awards, being the "most," is pervasive in this forum.

Is the African-American Studies AP exam considered one of the more rigorous ones?

It's not commonly offered, so no.

Is being an uncommon offering the definition of rigor? What definition are you applying to define rigor across different disciplines? Or do you just want to complain that there's an African-American studies AP exam in a not so subtly racist way?

I think you may be asking the PP who raised this example, but as it's not commonly offered, it's not generally expected for admissions, and so it is irrelevant for the purpose of this thread.

Not being expected for admissions has nothing to do with how rigorous a course is.

Sure. My apologies for being confusing. The thread is about what is required for a most rigorous designation. That course would not be involved in that designation because it just isn't there.

Rigorous social sciences would include APUSH and AP Euro, somewhat AP World and AP macro/micro. Not AP Human Geo or AP Psych.

If we are talking about what moves the needle for rigorous schedule, AP African American Studies isn't even in the discussion because most high schools do not offer that course. It's not going to hurt, but not relevant for the purpose of this thread.

Citation? This sounds more like your opinion of what constitutes a rigorous AP.

Chip on your shoulder? If one is applying to a HBCU seems like AP AA Studies would help. Otherwise - focus on the other more "common" APs valued by the bulk of the universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aim for an AP in each core subject, plus a few more. You do not need all of them, nor does anyone need 12-18 APs to be admitted. Even at high schools offering lots of APs, if you take 8-10 rigorous ones, that's sufficient for most top schools. The less rigorous ones don't add value for admission.

The exception to this is that less rigorous APs nonetheless add a point for the weighted GPA, which can affect class rank or rank by decile or quartile.

Top college admission is not a race to the most APs. You need some, yes, and they should be rigorous ones. There is a rough - but not exact - minimum and that will vary by student. There is a balance. You do not need "the most possible," that is NOT how it works. Be careful what you read, because the general mentality of being "impressive," winning contests and awards, being the "most," is pervasive in this forum.

Is the African-American Studies AP exam considered one of the more rigorous ones?

It's not commonly offered, so no.

Is being an uncommon offering the definition of rigor? What definition are you applying to define rigor across different disciplines? Or do you just want to complain that there's an African-American studies AP exam in a not so subtly racist way?

I think you may be asking the PP who raised this example, but as it's not commonly offered, it's not generally expected for admissions, and so it is irrelevant for the purpose of this thread.

Not being expected for admissions has nothing to do with how rigorous a course is.

Sure. My apologies for being confusing. The thread is about what is required for a most rigorous designation. That course would not be involved in that designation because it just isn't there.

Rigorous social sciences would include APUSH and AP Euro, somewhat AP World and AP macro/micro. Not AP Human Geo or AP Psych.

If we are talking about what moves the needle for rigorous schedule, AP African American Studies isn't even in the discussion because most high schools do not offer that course. It's not going to hurt, but not relevant for the purpose of this thread.

Citation? This sounds more like your opinion of what constitutes a rigorous AP.

Chip on your shoulder? If one is applying to a HBCU seems like AP AA Studies would help. Otherwise - focus on the other more "common" APs valued by the bulk of the universities.

The whole idea that uncommon APs are viewed as not rigorous is faulty. APAAS is only two years old and it’s already more common than AP Chinese.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

[Anonymous]

My kid needed to take the AP classes to be a competitive applicant at the schools they wanted to attend.

The AP credits do help knock out some credits in college and change status.

HOWEVER, some of the classes they took needed to be retaken in college even though they scored high enough for undergrad credit b/c the programs they would be applying to after undergrad wouldn't accept AP in lieu of credits earned in college. This came up for science classes. At least the AP class was good prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

I’m not so sure about that. A lot of kids at HYPS, at least, come from elite private schools that don’t offer APs. Meanwhile UNC is mostly kids from North Carolina, where even the private schools are the non-elite kind that do offer APs.

[Anonymous]

how do schools look at kids who self-study for APs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

Oh well if you’re quite sure I find that completely convincing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

The number is important because it determines how many kids have it.

To be competitive to top schools for example, you’ll have to be in the top 1% ish of the AP metric, if that’s your strength.

It turns out it takes 12 exams to be in the top 1%, 10 exams is 3%, likely acceptable if you have other things, 7 exams is top 10% of students, likely not competitive at the very top colleges, but still solid at many others.

5 exams at UNC sounds about right, it’s top 20% of students.

That’s a cute theory but it’s more wishful thinking - you are so desperate to reduce admissions to how many of this or your score on that. Maybe for some schools you can do that but I doubt it matters at others.

I’m quite sure the number of typical AP is higher at HYPSM than at UNC.

I’m not so sure about that. A lot of kids at HYPS, at least, come from elite private schools that don’t offer APs. Meanwhile UNC is mostly kids from North Carolina, where even the private schools are the non-elite kind that do offer APs.

Even if it was true it doesn’t tell
you anything about how they’re valued for admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People desperately want APs to count for admissions simply because it’s a counting stat. I took X APs and scored a 5 on this many of them.

I think the reality is far more complicated and chasing 10, 12 or 14 APs is just misguided.

Montgomery County kids take APUSH in 9th grade. Isn’t it possible that colleges devalue APs if 9th graders can excel in them?

A lot of colleges put some kind of cap on the way they score APs. For example they might want to see one AP in each core subject, or treat “6 or more” APs the same, so that there’s no extra benefit to taking 18. But of course as with everything this varies from school to school.

Source? Or was this told to you by your admissions officer “friends.”

“On average, people who take harder classes in high school may be better students already, so of course they’d have higher GPAs in college. To control for that, Kretchmar and Wiesen took into account SAT scores and high school grades. They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college—but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year undergraduate GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). Above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.

“From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. ‘There’s no penalty for taking more than five,’ Farmer explains, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.’ Starting with the 2013–2014 admissions season, this is how UNC’s whole staff reading applications should be viewing AP and IB course loads.”

https://endeavors.unc.edu/more_ap_classes_may_not_be_better#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20people%20who%20take,to%20repeat%20the%20same%20mistake.

But also, isn’t it obvious? Look at all the disappointed parents and students crying about how taking eleventy-hundred AP courses didn’t get them into HYPSM. And look at all the kids from private schools that don’t even offer APs getting in. If overloading on AP courses was always better, that would be flipped. Go ahead and take more APs if that’s the best choice for you at your high school, but in terms of college admissions there really is a point of diminishing returns.

It’s one study done at one mid tier college, UNC. Not controlled for other factors like type of college, major, high school profile, student background etc.

I agree though that there’s a point of diminished returns, in my view 10 of the highest rigor APs.

+1 Just because one study done at one state school in North Carolina found that 5 APs is enough for them doesn't mean that this conclusion applies nationwide.

And you're also confused about your interpretation of students crying about taking "eleventy hundred" APs and not getting into HYPSM. These schools have small undergrad populations and <5% acceptance rates, and most applicants won't get in.

But that doesn't mean that students with more AP coursework aren't more likely to get in (even if acceptance rates are low) than students with less AP coursework. I would bet that in most elite universities, a higher number of APs is correlated with a higher acceptance rate (even if there are diminishing returns at some point).

Yes, of course kids with more APs don't have a less chance of getting in. But kids who take on a huge number of APs usually (not always) don't have time for much else. I'm always shocked by kids who take 15+ APs... unless their school is very easy. At our public it's very hard to get solid As in AP courses. Plus, does it fit the kids profile to take a bunch of random APs? Do those kids come off as grinders? Sometimes yes. Do those kids get into Ivies. Sometimes yes.

The number isn't that important. Take the ones that fit your profile. Beyond a certain number, there aren't that many that are in the core subjects. Better to spend the extra time pursuing interests and building relationships with teachers.

A friend told me she once interviewed a candidate for HYPS, and she had taken every single (!) AP available. She was not accepted... probably because she had not much else to show. The number of APs you take shouldn't even come up in the interview!

That's obviously a lie, unless the school has very few APs available.

There are 40 AP subjects.

And if you define "available" as "all AP options for core classes and electives", then thousands of kids do that, and many, many of them go to 3/5/10/20 schools.

NP

There is a pretty big range between very few and 40, ya dummy. You know that, so why call someone a liar? It’s non-sensical.

[Anonymous]

It’s important for admissions but then schools don’t really accept most of the AP “credits”.
My son’s T20 SLAC only took a max of 2 AP credits.
He was accepted ED so I don’t think he put much effort into AP tests that year knowing he already had the max of 2 credits for APs.