What if Colleges Truly Required Test Scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is so weird to me how obsessed some of you are with test scores as the end all and be all—and I say this as someone with a kid who got at 36 on the ACT in their first and only try.

I don’t think this entitles my kid to admission over kids with lower or no test scores. I think TO is great. I am glad 95% of schools are still TO.

Some of you need to off X and get outside. Good lord.

I agree. I think it’s the parents of high scorers who can’t believe a student can show intelligence/ talent/ potential/ ambition/ drive in another way. Test blind has worked out just fine for California schools

ROTFLMAO

It’s meeting the priorities of the state. They are ROTFLTAO if you think that they care one bit about your priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is so weird to me how obsessed some of you are with test scores as the end all and be all—and I say this as someone with a kid who got at 36 on the ACT in their first and only try.

I don’t think this entitles my kid to admission over kids with lower or no test scores. I think TO is great. I am glad 95% of schools are still TO.

Some of you need to off X and get outside. Good lord.

I agree. I think it’s the parents of high scorers who can’t believe a student can show intelligence/ talent/ potential/ ambition/ drive in another way. Test blind has worked out just fine for California schools

ROTFLMAO

It’s meeting the priorities of the state. They are ROTFLTAO if you think that they care one bit about your priorities.

More accurately, it’s meeting the ideological priorities of the state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey, here are some other studies (actual studies, not screenshots from X):

High School GPAs and ACT Scores as Predictors of College Completion: Examining Assumptions About Consistency Across High Schools: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X20902110

Contextualized High School Performance: Evidence to Inform Equitable Holistic, Test-Optional, and Test-Free Admissions Policies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23328584231197413

Is the Sky Falling? Grade Inflation and the Signaling Power of Grades
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0013189X13481382

Predicting College Success
How Do Different High School Assessments Measure Up?
https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/predicting-college-success-how-do-different-high-school-assessments-measure-2019

All of these fail to take account for the restricted range problem. A problem that went away during the test optional covid era when we could see the effect of admitting students with lower test scores on a regular basis. All of this is true at highly selective colleges and less true at less selective colleges.

That’s an excellent point. With top schools the SAT scores were so high that there was very little difference and thus there would be little effect of SAT scores on student outcomes. UT Austin did an analysis of TO vs non-TO students and found that TO students had SAT scores. According to UT’s own analysis, students who submitted test scores during the test-optional period tended to perform better academically with higher GPA and lower risk of poor grades compared to those who didn’t submit scores, even after controlling for high school grades and class rank. The difference in GPA was .86; almost a full letter grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey, here are some other studies (actual studies, not screenshots from X):

High School GPAs and ACT Scores as Predictors of College Completion: Examining Assumptions About Consistency Across High Schools: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X20902110

Contextualized High School Performance: Evidence to Inform Equitable Holistic, Test-Optional, and Test-Free Admissions Policies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23328584231197413

Is the Sky Falling? Grade Inflation and the Signaling Power of Grades
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0013189X13481382

Predicting College Success
How Do Different High School Assessments Measure Up?
https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/predicting-college-success-how-do-different-high-school-assessments-measure-2019

You forgot the UC study that looked at ALL the research and found that test scores were statistically significant in predicting college success. I believe that Purdue released similar research when they returned to test required.

No, I’m not forgetting that study. I’m noting that there are lots of studies with lots of different conclusions. Anyone saying that there’s a clear answer based on one study is not interested in the messy reality.

Which is why I’m a fan of test optional and holistic admissions—let schools figure out how to incorporate test scores. Let students emphasize their strengths. This is not a black and white issue, no matter how much you want it to be.

The larger and more comprehensive studies show that test scores are good (often the best) predictors of college performance. A few small underpowered studies showing something else aren’t particularly convincing. Even before the UC study Kuncel and Sackett at UMN used standardized test scores for millions of students and pretty conclusively showed that they’re the best predictor of college performance.

Pre Covid the body of research indicated that HS gpa was a better predictor than test scores. The difference isn’t huge but it was real and well documented. Post Covid this reversed and test scores are now the better predictor.

Agreed. Only the current information is useful.

[Anonymous]

It’s never been the case that *only* test scores were used in admissions.

Anonymous wrote:I’m not clicking your link but isn’t that how it was up until 2020? That’s an honest question, my kids are in HS now so I wasn’t paying attention back then.

[Anonymous]

The professors at UC Dan Diego, with students who can’t do middle school math, obviously felt differently. Their report is pretty scathing on test blind admissions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test blind has worked out just fine for California schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think they trigger the other group

I am firmly in the test required camp and i am triggered. The quantum leap in the stupidification of america with test optional was disturbing. The students became so dumb all of a sudden. That a society would do this to themselves is mind boggling.

If an alien race came along and wanted to subjugate us, this i how they might start.
If someone else did this to us we would be at war.

The evolution trend is trending down.....

[Anonymous]

Forget math—soon we’ll have people who can’t read or write, only talk to AI, binge TikTok all day, and communicate in animal noises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think they trigger the other group

I am firmly in the test required camp and i am triggered. The quantum leap in the stupidification of america with test optional was disturbing. The students became so dumb all of a sudden. That a society would do this to themselves is mind boggling.

If an alien race came along and wanted to subjugate us, this i how they might start.

If someone else did this to us we would be at war.

I'm on the other end. There needs to be more accountability on American schools. Why are thousands of kids in AP classes, learning nothing, and getting into top colleges? Make AP exam scores required, make the exams more difficult, and force schools to submit their ap average scores for each exam. GPA can, used to be, and should be the best predictor of success. High schools need to be pressured to curve to an average Gpa of 3.0 and eventually 2.0. 4.0s should be rare and standardized exams need to weigh your final score in a course. The SAT is a waste of time, and only the focus, because the kids are so dumb from the schools that pass 100s to anyone who completes the assignment.

This already happens at many schools. It also is a problem in some parts of the country along with a lack of rigor in honors classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is so weird to me how obsessed some of you are with test scores as the end all and be all—and I say this as someone with a kid who got at 36 on the ACT in their first and only try.

I don’t think this entitles my kid to admission over kids with lower or no test scores. I think TO is great. I am glad 95% of schools are still TO.

Some of you need to off X and get outside. Good lord.

I agree. I think it’s the parents of high scorers who can’t believe a student can show intelligence/ talent/ potential/ ambition/ drive in another way. Test blind has worked out just fine for California schools

ROTFLMAO

It’s meeting the priorities of the state. They are ROTFLTAO if you think that they care one bit about your priorities.

More accurately, it’s meeting the ideological priorities of the state.

Political priorities. The UCs admissions process is designed to achieve statewide representation at every campus as opposed to just serving the Bay Area and SoCal suburbs. Makes complete sense as a public institution. It has always been that way, it just gets more attention now with the predictable results for the talent dense Bay Area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think they trigger the other group

I am firmly in the test required camp and i am triggered. The quantum leap in the stupidification of america with test optional was disturbing. The students became so dumb all of a sudden. That a society would do this to themselves is mind boggling.

If an alien race came along and wanted to subjugate us, this i how they might start.

If someone else did this to us we would be at war.

I'm on the other end. There needs to be more accountability on American schools. Why are thousands of kids in AP classes, learning nothing, and getting into top colleges? Make AP exam scores required, make the exams more difficult, and force schools to submit their ap average scores for each exam. GPA can, used to be, and should be the best predictor of success. High schools need to be pressured to curve to an average Gpa of 3.0 and eventually 2.0. 4.0s should be rare and standardized exams need to weigh your final score in a course. The SAT is a waste of time, and only the focus, because the kids are so dumb from the schools that pass 100s to anyone who completes the assignment.

This already happens at many schools. It also is a problem in some parts of the country along with a lack of rigor in honors classes.

Accountability is everything. Why are we paying absurd amounts to raise children just so they can end up as W-2 slaves?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is so weird to me how obsessed some of you are with test scores as the end all and be all—and I say this as someone with a kid who got at 36 on the ACT in their first and only try.

I don’t think this entitles my kid to admission over kids with lower or no test scores. I think TO is great. I am glad 95% of schools are still TO.

Some of you need to off X and get outside. Good lord.

I agree. I think it’s the parents of high scorers who can’t believe a student can show intelligence/ talent/ potential/ ambition/ drive in another way. Test blind has worked out just fine for California schools

ROTFLMAO

It’s meeting the priorities of the state. They are ROTFLTAO if you think that they care one bit about your priorities.

More accurately, it’s meeting the ideological priorities of the state.

Political priorities. The UCs admissions process is designed to achieve statewide representation at every campus as opposed to just serving the Bay Area and SoCal suburbs. Makes complete sense as a public institution. It has always been that way, it just gets more attention now with the predictable results for the talent dense Bay Area.

Tax Fraud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey, here are some other studies (actual studies, not screenshots from X):

High School GPAs and ACT Scores as Predictors of College Completion: Examining Assumptions About Consistency Across High Schools: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X20902110

Contextualized High School Performance: Evidence to Inform Equitable Holistic, Test-Optional, and Test-Free Admissions Policies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23328584231197413

Is the Sky Falling? Grade Inflation and the Signaling Power of Grades
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0013189X13481382

Predicting College Success
How Do Different High School Assessments Measure Up?
https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/predicting-college-success-how-do-different-high-school-assessments-measure-2019

All of these fail to take account for the restricted range problem. A problem that went away during the test optional covid era when we could see the effect of admitting students with lower test scores on a regular basis. All of this is true at highly selective colleges and less true at less selective colleges.

That’s an excellent point. With top schools the SAT scores were so high that there was very little difference and thus there would be little effect of SAT scores on student outcomes. UT Austin did an analysis of TO vs non-TO students and found that TO students had SAT scores. According to UT’s own analysis, students who submitted test scores during the test-optional period tended to perform better academically with higher GPA and lower risk of poor grades compared to those who didn’t submit scores, even after controlling for high school grades and class rank. The difference in GPA was .86; almost a full letter grade.

UT is a massive state school that accepts students with 1200 SATs as long as they are top of their class. It’s nothing like the top colleges.

[Anonymous]

The UCSD report makes a great emphasis that schools need to change their curriculum and reassess how they give out GPAs. Students look qualified but aren’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey, here are some other studies (actual studies, not screenshots from X):

High School GPAs and ACT Scores as Predictors of College Completion: Examining Assumptions About Consistency Across High Schools: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X20902110

Contextualized High School Performance: Evidence to Inform Equitable Holistic, Test-Optional, and Test-Free Admissions Policies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23328584231197413

Is the Sky Falling? Grade Inflation and the Signaling Power of Grades
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0013189X13481382

Predicting College Success
How Do Different High School Assessments Measure Up?
https://edpolicyinca.org/publications/predicting-college-success-how-do-different-high-school-assessments-measure-2019

All of these fail to take account for the restricted range problem. A problem that went away during the test optional covid era when we could see the effect of admitting students with lower test scores on a regular basis. All of this is true at highly selective colleges and less true at less selective colleges.

That’s an excellent point. With top schools the SAT scores were so high that there was very little difference and thus there would be little effect of SAT scores on student outcomes. UT Austin did an analysis of TO vs non-TO students and found that TO students had SAT scores. According to UT’s own analysis, students who submitted test scores during the test-optional period tended to perform better academically with higher GPA and lower risk of poor grades compared to those who didn’t submit scores, even after controlling for high school grades and class rank. The difference in GPA was .86; almost a full letter grade.

UT is a massive state school that accepts students with 1200 SATs as long as they are top of their class. It’s nothing like the top colleges.

Well, if the top colleges are accepting TO kids at the top of their class that scored 1200 on the SAT, that seems exactly the same.