Guesstimated % of unhooked kids- ivies- without parental pushing

[Anonymous]

In my kids’ school, kids like this get into UCLA or Berkeley but not Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My unhooked public got in, only help was essay edit by a parent but nothing majorly changed. Kid was very accomplished, researched a ton and knew to make a cohesive story, and did well. I don’t think expensive consultants are necessary.

Yes, the vast majority of students research extensively, know how to craft a cohesive story and do it well. They also go to bed early.

No, but the ones that get in unhooked do. That’s the point, they aren’t typical, and never have been.

This. Unhooked kids at ivies and other T15 are not at all typical. When you have had multiple kids go through the process, or if you are a teacher in a rigorous high school that sends 20% UVA/T25 but only a few to ivy/T10, you can see the difference. The latter are self-motivated, seek out challenging courses, ace the hard APs/99th+%ile since they were little, natural leaders in the classroom with the respect of teachers and peers, have energy and time left to pursue outside arts/ECs and still manage to get all As with 7-8 hrs of sleep at night. There is nothing normal or typical about the unhooked kids at the ivy level.
Those that are over-managed and pushed by parents to grind all the time and try to keep up with these kids usually do not land at ivies and if they do they do not thrive there.

The larger question is are these the traits that lead you to the most coveted and successful professional careers?

Oftentimes no. They aren’t social/personable and gregarious. They tap out. Same with the ones pushed by parents though. It’s the third group that ends up outpacing both.

Better to peak later in my experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My unhooked public got in, only help was essay edit by a parent but nothing majorly changed. Kid was very accomplished, researched a ton and knew to make a cohesive story, and did well. I don’t think expensive consultants are necessary.

Yes, the vast majority of students research extensively, know how to craft a cohesive story and do it well. They also go to bed early.

No, but the ones that get in unhooked do. That’s the point, they aren’t typical, and never have been.

This. Unhooked kids at ivies and other T15 are not at all typical. When you have had multiple kids go through the process, or if you are a teacher in a rigorous high school that sends 20% UVA/T25 but only a few to ivy/T10, you can see the difference. The latter are self-motivated, seek out challenging courses, ace the hard APs/99th+%ile since they were little, natural leaders in the classroom with the respect of teachers and peers, have energy and time left to pursue outside arts/ECs and still manage to get all As with 7-8 hrs of sleep at night. There is nothing normal or typical about the unhooked kids at the ivy level.
Those that are over-managed and pushed by parents to grind all the time and try to keep up with these kids usually do not land at ivies and if they do they do not thrive there.

The larger question is are these the traits that lead you to the most coveted and successful professional careers?

Oftentimes no. They aren’t social/personable and gregarious. They tap out. Same with the ones pushed by parents though. It’s the third group that ends up outpacing both.

Better to peak later in my experience.

I suppose it depends on what is coveted and successful. I considered becoming an MD to be the desirable and I fit the description in the previous post as did almost all of my top-3 med school companions. More than half of us came from T20/ivy schools. Many of us are heads of divisions of big name schools or have had significant research results. Spouse is a professor in stem and has taught at MIT, an ivy, as well as some lesser knowns. Tenure is an elite. That was spouse’s dream job. Another close relative also a top student top of the class outlier in intelligence went to a top law school and into $$ big law. That was his dream. From our feederish high school the outlier smart kid or two almost every year HS 2016-2021 have gone on to top law schools and top med schools and one has a startup. All went to top undergrads. Half got need-based aid at those places. We know these families well with overlapping siblings.
The myth of the highly intelligent curious students who are outliers in high school and then burnout is merely a myth. Many of us are highly successful realize our top-undergrad experience helped a great deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My unhooked public got in, only help was essay edit by a parent but nothing majorly changed. Kid was very accomplished, researched a ton and knew to make a cohesive story, and did well. I don’t think expensive consultants are necessary.

Yes, the vast majority of students research extensively, know how to craft a cohesive story and do it well. They also go to bed early.

No, but the ones that get in unhooked do. That’s the point, they aren’t typical, and never have been.

True! And an outsized portion will continue to be atypically successful in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Better to peak later in my experience.

Life is too short or unpredictable. Better to peak early and learn how to sustain a high enough level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is fascinating. I was that completely unhooked and unhelped kid in a regular suburb where everyone went to state schools, but that was in 1997. I have my 8th grade journal and it has a list of everything I needed to do that summer and in 9th and 10th grade called “What I Need To Get Into A Good School”, down to which activity I would do which semester and how I could get into certain science classes early without jeopardizing my electives schedule and an SAT studying schedule. I don’t know where I got these ideas but I did read a lot of New Yorkers and the New York Times at the school library so I think I subconsciously absorbed the concept of elite schools and how to get into them.

My parents had gone to state schools but were ordinary, barely UMC and sometimes MC due to job loss and instability. They had no idea how things worked but did give me their checkbook so I would write out application fee checks. My mom also let me go to her office so I could access an old typewriter they had there to use for applications.

I think there is so much transparency to the application process now and so much conversation around applications that it would be really tough now to find a MC or UMC kid who didn’t have parents more involved than mine. The stakes are too high.

But even you, as motivated at you were, wouldn’t get in now without the parental push giving you the ultra “unique” ECs that are now needed to stand out. Being an excellent student, taking the right classes, studying, being class president, varsity captain, etc. is very ordinary now. What kid gets involved with sailing solo around the world or making historical period costumes or starting a wildlife refuge habitat without a lot of parent help

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my kids’ school, kids like this get into UCLA or Berkeley but not Ivies.

Kids like what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My unhooked public got in, only help was essay edit by a parent but nothing majorly changed. Kid was very accomplished, researched a ton and knew to make a cohesive story, and did well. I don’t think expensive consultants are necessary.

Yes, the vast majority of students research extensively, know how to craft a cohesive story and do it well. They also go to bed early.

No, but the ones that get in unhooked do. That’s the point, they aren’t typical, and never have been.

This. Unhooked kids at ivies and other T15 are not at all typical. When you have had multiple kids go through the process, or if you are a teacher in a rigorous high school that sends 20% UVA/T25 but only a few to ivy/T10, you can see the difference. The latter are self-motivated, seek out challenging courses, ace the hard APs/99th+%ile since they were little, natural leaders in the classroom with the respect of teachers and peers, have energy and time left to pursue outside arts/ECs and still manage to get all As with 7-8 hrs of sleep at night. There is nothing normal or typical about the unhooked kids at the ivy level.
Those that are over-managed and pushed by parents to grind all the time and try to keep up with these kids usually do not land at ivies and if they do they do not thrive there.

The larger question is are these the traits that lead you to the most coveted and successful professional careers?

Oftentimes no. They aren’t social/personable and gregarious. They tap out. Same with the ones pushed by parents though. It’s the third group that ends up outpacing both.

Better to peak later in my experience.

I hate this phrase. I heard it when kids were in elementary and parent of a kid who didn’t get into AAP said this. It continued on with advanced math in middle school and APs in HS. It is such sour grapes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For a smart/talented/over-represented/non-remote area/middle class student with no hook, I think their best chance to do it organically is to go to a feeder school. They have a realistic chance for ivy by excelling academically with normal vanilla-type ECs.

We used to think that, but think differently now! All those kids from DD’s middle school who went to an Ivy feeder private are at places like Tufts, UCD, etc. They were competing with legacies and athletes at the feeder too! Meanwhile DD was denied by the feeder (unhooked, ORM, etc.) and got into the Ivy the feeder is for. She really stood out from our public. We are not so sure she would have stood out at the feeder. I will say that she was very lucky with her college decisions as it is unheard of for our school to send an unhooked kid to that Ivy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What percent of students do you think get into Ivy leagues who are both:

- completely unhooked and by that I mean, including Rural, first GEN, low income, minority, athletes, feeder schools, come from states that produce few applicants, etc.

AND

- have zero pushing from parents (to join/start/continue activities, college admissions counselors, essay help, etc) OR anything that results in a curated college app.

More than people think. Teachers love these kids who they know should be heading to Harvard but don’t have support. It takes one or two devoted teachers to get the student through the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What percent of students do you think get into Ivy leagues who are both:

- completely unhooked and by that I mean, including Rural, first GEN, low income, minority, athletes, feeder schools, come from states that produce few applicants, etc.

AND

- have zero pushing from parents (to join/start/continue activities, college admissions counselors, essay help, etc) OR anything that results in a curated college app.

More than people think. Teachers love these kids who they know should be heading to Harvard but don’t have support. It takes one or two devoted teachers to get the student through the process.

Where do you see teachers doing this for high school aged kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What percent of students do you think get into Ivy leagues who are both:

- completely unhooked and by that I mean, including Rural, first GEN, low income, minority, athletes, feeder schools, come from states that produce few applicants, etc.

AND

- have zero pushing from parents (to join/start/continue activities, college admissions counselors, essay help, etc) OR anything that results in a curated college app.

The ivies have always been hard to get into if you are unhooked. If you are going to count geographic diversity and low income as hooks, I'd bet there are very few completely unhooked kids getting into ivies ever.

The ivies are even harder to get into if you've got geographic diversity, or low income. The difference is that those kids have more barriers to overcome before they get to the point where they would be in a position to apply, where as UMC white kids have all those barriers cleared out of the way so they are way overrepresented in the applicant pool, and then whine like crazy when they are only somewhate overrepresented in the pool of admitted students.

What barriers would a low income kid not be able to overcome?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What percent of students do you think get into Ivy leagues who are both:

- completely unhooked and by that I mean, including Rural, first GEN, low income, minority, athletes, feeder schools, come from states that produce few applicants, etc.

AND

- have zero pushing from parents (to join/start/continue activities, college admissions counselors, essay help, etc) OR anything that results in a curated college app.

The ivies have always been hard to get into if you are unhooked. If you are going to count geographic diversity and low income as hooks, I'd bet there are very few completely unhooked kids getting into ivies ever.

The ivies are even harder to get into if you've got geographic diversity, or low income. The difference is that those kids have more barriers to overcome before they get to the point where they would be in a position to apply, where as UMC white kids have all those barriers cleared out of the way so they are way overrepresented in the applicant pool, and then whine like crazy when they are only somewhate overrepresented in the pool of admitted students.

What barriers would a low income kid not be able to overcome?

New Poster- are you serious? Low-cost income kids usually go to crappy, urban public schools with lousy sports offerings, worn out teachers and few role models. They don't have resources for tutoring and travel. Lots of unstable, and often fatherless families with food insecurity and unstable housing situations....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my BFF's daughter isn't a senior yet, but I predict ivy's for her. No hooks--and her parents have given up on asking her if she really feels the need to take that insanely challenging class or compete in that national competition or do any of the objectively extraordinary things she does. They are loving, supportive, and somewhat baffled. This is ALL her, not them. If they push at all, it's for her to please take it easy.

This kid is not only exceptionally brilliant, she's an energizer bunny! Not happy unless she is active and challenging herself. Engaged in a wide variety of academic, athletic, artistic, and service endeavors. All in leadership capacities, many on a regional if not national scale.

She has wonderful friends, a lovely family, and is quite privileged in rather ordinary but obvious ways.

Ofc she also has the needed perfect grades and ridiculous test scores: But for the past three years her extracurricular engagement has truly been a marvel. I would not believe kids like this existed if I hadn't watched her grow up as she has. But she's just casually both brilliant and ambitious. Not because she's trying to get into an ivy, but because she really really really loves doing all of these crazy wonderful things.

It does sound as though she will fit in at ivies.
This description is like my DC and most but not all of their friends at their ivy. The few not like this tend to have significant signs of burnout, not working hard on group assignments and oversleep lots of classes/ get well below the mean on tests repeatedly with no apparent effort to improve. Honestly when the majority are like the PP’s kid and my DC and friends it is hard to keep motivated if you are not the same level of brilliant, highly organized, collaborative but always working toward the next goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my BFF's daughter isn't a senior yet, but I predict ivy's for her. No hooks--and her parents have given up on asking her if she really feels the need to take that insanely challenging class or compete in that national competition or do any of the objectively extraordinary things she does. They are loving, supportive, and somewhat baffled. This is ALL her, not them. If they push at all, it's for her to please take it easy.

This kid is not only exceptionally brilliant, she's an energizer bunny! Not happy unless she is active and challenging herself. Engaged in a wide variety of academic, athletic, artistic, and service endeavors. All in leadership capacities, many on a regional if not national scale.

She has wonderful friends, a lovely family, and is quite privileged in rather ordinary but obvious ways.

Ofc she also has the needed perfect grades and ridiculous test scores: But for the past three years her extracurricular engagement has truly been a marvel. I would not believe kids like this existed if I hadn't watched her grow up as she has. But she's just casually both brilliant and ambitious. Not because she's trying to get into an ivy, but because she really really really loves doing all of these crazy wonderful things.

chatgpt ... ?

Nope You can tell bc no em dashes or weird parallel phrasing lol

Like I said, I wouldn't believe she was for real if I didn't know her.

She is a bit self-conscious about her appearance. Does that help you believe she is a real teenager?

She is kind of like Alex from Modern family, but a little happier -- and her parents are way smarter (well my Bestie is, her husband is... charismatic? Definitely gets the high energy from him.)

It's annoying, you really want to roll your eyes at her. But she's lovely and this is just who she is. She wants to go to an ivy mostly because she hopes she will (finally?) have a real cohort of likeminded peers. That's probably the thing she struggles with most: She doesn't love all the attention. She would like to be somewhere it's more ordinary to be exceptional.

I know. I'd be rolling my eyes too. I think she's a rare bird--and she might be disappointed to find she will continue to be exceptional, even in exceptional spaces. Heavy is the crown...!

She will