When you say t50...

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Are you also talking about schools like Case Western, Tulane that are not technically in US News's t50 anymore?

USNWR is what educators, parents, students look to first for a general sense before true research takes place.

Anyone can quibble with USNWR methodology, etc. ( funny how people complain when the methodology doesn't suit their preferred school), but any ranking in T75 covers any "slippage."

Well the USNWR methodology removed Class size from its process a few years ago. Which is shocking, as many of us (smartly) think that smaller class sizes does lead to better educational opportunities. Much easier to learn in a room with 30-40 students where you can actively ask questions than in a lecture hall with 200+.
So yes, I will complain when the most recent changes basically moved many smaller (under 8K) private schools down 5-10 spots and put large state schools in their place. Because I know the smaller private schools are actually still better schools.

Facts. For example I think BC is a better school than a lot of the massive publics currently ranked above it. And Rutgers is a solid state flagship. But Top 50? Please.

You think BC is better than Cal or UCLA or Michigan? At the end of the day if a school is not currently ranked in the top 50, then it is not a top 50 ranked school. It's pretty simple.

DP. BC's current rank is 37. The PP didn't specify Cal/UCLA/UMich. However, there are a number of other publics ranked above BC: UVA, UNC, UFlorida, UT Austin, UCI, UCD, UIUC.

According to the rankings, these schools are ranked higher than BC, which indicates they are considered better. While someone might prefer BC or wish it were ranked higher than those public schools, the rankings do not reflect that.

What makes a school "better" overall - in this case, publics moving up due to change in Pell weights - does not make a school produce a better graduate and which schools are "better" did not suddenly change just because the ranking changed.

The rankings reflect what US News wants them to reflect.

1000%

So if you believe a large state school is a better education for your UMC+ kid, simply because the rankings include that now, go for it.

I will continue to believe the rankings are flawed and that access to professors, smaller class sizes,a nd all the opportunities that come with a much smaller undergrad population are in reality a better education. I don't need USNWR to tell me that.

Firstly, at most smaller Universities in the T100, your kid can select any major they want. No Hunger Games 2,.0 to attempt to get one of a few slots (if any) if your kid was not Direct Admitted to Business, CS, Engineering, any stem major, etc. I consider it a better education if my kid can freely change majors or add one or add a minor, actually get into what they want and graduate in 4 years. My Flagship state U is T50, ranked (after the changes ) about the same as the top private school my kid is attending. The difference is, my kid did not have to have a 4.0 freshman/soph year to get into the exact engineering major they wanted (they were lucky enough to be admitted at the State University to Engineering, but then you fight for the exact major). My kid was also able to add a CS minor at their 50 private school, at the Flagship U (Top 5 for CS), it is not a possibility, even direct admit is damn near impossible. You simply cannot just take a CS course unless you are in the major already.
So yeah, my kid is getting a much better education. They get ALL THE courses they need the first time---many at State U take 5+ years because they cannot get into classes, they fill up and you are stuck. And if my kid decided to change majors, they can and are not forced into a "non impacted major" like art history or English (almost every STEM/Business/CS/Eng at the State University are impacted and difficult to get into).

So yeah, no way in hell the two schools are similar in quality---my kid is getting a much better education, access to research starting sophomore year (real meaningful research), TAing courses starting in Soph year, etc. No comparison at all

Small schools have a limited number of majors. My kid wants aerospace engineering. Is that available at Tulane? How about something more basic like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? No? But you can major in art history, dance or gender studies and have small class sizes.

Wake only offers “Engineering” as a major. No specialization for mechanical, chemical, or electrical. They graduated their first cohort in 2021. Seriously?

Am I supposed to think Wake is a top school? Does it help that they view engineering as a humanistic experience?

The Whole Engineer
We believe it is important for our students to bring their whole and authentic selves to the classroom, their education and all their pursuits. We view engineering as a science, as an art, as innovation and as a humanistic experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you also talking about schools like Case Western, Tulane that are not technically in US News's t50 anymore?

USNWR is what educators, parents, students look to first for a general sense before true research takes place.

Anyone can quibble with USNWR methodology, etc. ( funny how people complain when the methodology doesn't suit their preferred school), but any ranking in T75 covers any "slippage."

Well the USNWR methodology removed Class size from its process a few years ago. Which is shocking, as many of us (smartly) think that smaller class sizes does lead to better educational opportunities. Much easier to learn in a room with 30-40 students where you can actively ask questions than in a lecture hall with 200+.
So yes, I will complain when the most recent changes basically moved many smaller (under 8K) private schools down 5-10 spots and put large state schools in their place. Because I know the smaller private schools are actually still better schools.

Facts. For example I think BC is a better school than a lot of the massive publics currently ranked above it. And Rutgers is a solid state flagship. But Top 50? Please.

You think BC is better than Cal or UCLA or Michigan? At the end of the day if a school is not currently ranked in the top 50, then it is not a top 50 ranked school. It's pretty simple.

DP. BC's current rank is 37. The PP didn't specify Cal/UCLA/UMich. However, there are a number of other publics ranked above BC: UVA, UNC, UFlorida, UT Austin, UCI, UCD, UIUC.

According to the rankings, these schools are ranked higher than BC, which indicates they are considered better. While someone might prefer BC or wish it were ranked higher than those public schools, the rankings do not reflect that.

What makes a school "better" overall - in this case, publics moving up due to change in Pell weights - does not make a school produce a better graduate and which schools are "better" did not suddenly change just because the ranking changed.

The rankings reflect what US News wants them to reflect.

1000%

So if you believe a large state school is a better education for your UMC+ kid, simply because the rankings include that now, go for it.

I will continue to believe the rankings are flawed and that access to professors, smaller class sizes,a nd all the opportunities that come with a much smaller undergrad population are in reality a better education. I don't need USNWR to tell me that.

Firstly, at most smaller Universities in the T100, your kid can select any major they want. No Hunger Games 2,.0 to attempt to get one of a few slots (if any) if your kid was not Direct Admitted to Business, CS, Engineering, any stem major, etc. I consider it a better education if my kid can freely change majors or add one or add a minor, actually get into what they want and graduate in 4 years. My Flagship state U is T50, ranked (after the changes ) about the same as the top private school my kid is attending. The difference is, my kid did not have to have a 4.0 freshman/soph year to get into the exact engineering major they wanted (they were lucky enough to be admitted at the State University to Engineering, but then you fight for the exact major). My kid was also able to add a CS minor at their 50 private school, at the Flagship U (Top 5 for CS), it is not a possibility, even direct admit is damn near impossible. You simply cannot just take a CS course unless you are in the major already.
So yeah, my kid is getting a much better education. They get ALL THE courses they need the first time---many at State U take 5+ years because they cannot get into classes, they fill up and you are stuck. And if my kid decided to change majors, they can and are not forced into a "non impacted major" like art history or English (almost every STEM/Business/CS/Eng at the State University are impacted and difficult to get into).

So yeah, no way in hell the two schools are similar in quality---my kid is getting a much better education, access to research starting sophomore year (real meaningful research), TAing courses starting in Soph year, etc. No comparison at all

Small schools have a limited number of majors. My kid wants aerospace engineering. Is that available at Tulane? How about something more basic like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? No? But you can major in art history, dance or gender studies and have small class sizes.

Wake only offers “Engineering” as a major. No specialization for mechanical, chemical, or electrical. They graduated their first cohort in 2021. Seriously?

Am I supposed to think Wake is a top school? Does it help that they view engineering as a humanistic experience?

I just vomited... But hey, they have small class sizes and you will get to hang out with a professor and talk about humanistic experience.

The Whole Engineer
We believe it is important for our students to bring their whole and authentic selves to the classroom, their education and all their pursuits. We view engineering as a science, as an art, as innovation and as a humanistic experience.

[Anonymous]

USNWR rankings are caca. Research, diversity and aid are weighed exponentially more heavily than what really matters for good college.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:T50 using USNWR 2018 - pre TO, pre pandemic, and not the current methodology that places mobility over academics. To be clear I do not disagree with the institutional policies that promote social mobility, I just disagree that it should be part of ranking methodology.

2018?

Nope.

NP. Why? I agree that 2018/2019 was right around the time that common sense ended. Anything from that time or prior is a useful instrument for ascertaining actual quality of the education

2018/2019 is the proper vintage? Wouldn't that be an actual snapshot from 2018/2019? I understand that you like the criteria from that era but it's out of date at this point. Meaning 2018 criteria has 2018 or older data?

I prefer the criteria applied from 1960 to 2022. I do not value an increase in poor students. I am much more interested in things like instruction, outcomes, caliber of peers, class sizes and number of classes taught by professors versus other students.

You can feel free to value other things

I value the most up to date information when making a decision. How do you plug in the current information into the old criteria? I think you just really like the actual rankings of a certain vintage because you like where the schools are ranked. Do you use old maps even though they might not be accurate?

Ffs. The classroom ratios numbers of tenured professors, research output, and so forth, hasn’t changed in five years, and you know it. The only thing that has changed is the methodology criteria, and the fact that there were three years of glut of people who test poorly and we’re nevertheless admitted.

I’m not sure what has or hasn’t changed with each school ranked by U.S. News. What I do know is that rankings shift from year to year, and some people get really upset about it. They often claim the methodology is flawed—usually because they don’t like the results. Does that sound about right?

The US News rankings are deeply flawed. Two years ago, US News dropped things like class size, the qualifications of instructors, and the number of years it takes students to graduate. Instead, they prioritized the number of Pell Grant students at each school. These changes in the algorithm caused a number of private schools to drop, including some high endowment private schools that give excellent financial aid so that students don't need Pell Grants. Plus, they penalized schools for having smaller classes, professors with PhDs, and allowing the vast majority of students to graduate in four years. US News was clearly on a mission to boost public universities in their rankings.

Which, fine. It's their "magazine." But the effect was to make the US News rankings fairly useless for those who care about the quality of education. Most informed people don't think UC Merced with its 90 percent acceptance rate is a top 60 school. Only 30 percent of UC Merced students even graduate in 4 years. And yet US News ranks UC Merced much higher than hundreds of other schools that most regard as better academically. The whole ranking is filled with nonsense like that. People should look at US News if social mobility is their priority. But otherwise, look elsewhere if academics are important to you.

WSJ ratings are even more flawed than USNWR when it comes to rankings given their stew of ROI adjusted for "starting point" and graduation rates again adjusted for "similar socioeconomic profiles".

Which is why people are looking at Niche. WSJ dropped the ball - Babson at number 2? - with their very peculiar rankings. There's definitely a big space for a credible ranking after US News squandered their legitimacy.

Let’s face it…people are pissed about how Wake, Tulane, Tufts, William and Mary and a couple of others dropped in USNews.

So, fine, let’s use Niche:

- Wake is 48 vs 46 USnews
- Tulane is 69 vs 63 USNews
- Tufts is 47 vs 37 USNews
- W&M is 74 vs 54 USNews


Once more…these schools’ best rating are USNews. Niche, Forbes, WSJ, world rankings…they are all worse.

To a PP's point also using Niche:

Boston College is 43 vs 37 USnews
Boston University is 39 vs 41 USnews

For the privates, there's the solid T50s regardless of ranking outlets and methodology and then there's...."T50"

Let the complainers complain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you also talking about schools like Case Western, Tulane that are not technically in US News's t50 anymore?

USNWR is what educators, parents, students look to first for a general sense before true research takes place.

Anyone can quibble with USNWR methodology, etc. ( funny how people complain when the methodology doesn't suit their preferred school), but any ranking in T75 covers any "slippage."

Well the USNWR methodology removed Class size from its process a few years ago. Which is shocking, as many of us (smartly) think that smaller class sizes does lead to better educational opportunities. Much easier to learn in a room with 30-40 students where you can actively ask questions than in a lecture hall with 200+.
So yes, I will complain when the most recent changes basically moved many smaller (under 8K) private schools down 5-10 spots and put large state schools in their place. Because I know the smaller private schools are actually still better schools.

Facts. For example I think BC is a better school than a lot of the massive publics currently ranked above it. And Rutgers is a solid state flagship. But Top 50? Please.

You think BC is better than Cal or UCLA or Michigan? At the end of the day if a school is not currently ranked in the top 50, then it is not a top 50 ranked school. It's pretty simple.

DP. BC's current rank is 37. The PP didn't specify Cal/UCLA/UMich. However, there are a number of other publics ranked above BC: UVA, UNC, UFlorida, UT Austin, UCI, UCD, UIUC.

According to the rankings, these schools are ranked higher than BC, which indicates they are considered better. While someone might prefer BC or wish it were ranked higher than those public schools, the rankings do not reflect that.

What makes a school "better" overall - in this case, publics moving up due to change in Pell weights - does not make a school produce a better graduate and which schools are "better" did not suddenly change just because the ranking changed.

The rankings reflect what US News wants them to reflect.

1000%

So if you believe a large state school is a better education for your UMC+ kid, simply because the rankings include that now, go for it.

I will continue to believe the rankings are flawed and that access to professors, smaller class sizes,a nd all the opportunities that come with a much smaller undergrad population are in reality a better education. I don't need USNWR to tell me that.

Firstly, at most smaller Universities in the T100, your kid can select any major they want. No Hunger Games 2,.0 to attempt to get one of a few slots (if any) if your kid was not Direct Admitted to Business, CS, Engineering, any stem major, etc. I consider it a better education if my kid can freely change majors or add one or add a minor, actually get into what they want and graduate in 4 years. My Flagship state U is T50, ranked (after the changes ) about the same as the top private school my kid is attending. The difference is, my kid did not have to have a 4.0 freshman/soph year to get into the exact engineering major they wanted (they were lucky enough to be admitted at the State University to Engineering, but then you fight for the exact major). My kid was also able to add a CS minor at their 50 private school, at the Flagship U (Top 5 for CS), it is not a possibility, even direct admit is damn near impossible. You simply cannot just take a CS course unless you are in the major already.
So yeah, my kid is getting a much better education. They get ALL THE courses they need the first time---many at State U take 5+ years because they cannot get into classes, they fill up and you are stuck. And if my kid decided to change majors, they can and are not forced into a "non impacted major" like art history or English (almost every STEM/Business/CS/Eng at the State University are impacted and difficult to get into).

So yeah, no way in hell the two schools are similar in quality---my kid is getting a much better education, access to research starting sophomore year (real meaningful research), TAing courses starting in Soph year, etc. No comparison at all

Small schools have a limited number of majors. My kid wants aerospace engineering. Is that available at Tulane? How about something more basic like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? No? But you can major in art history, dance or gender studies and have small class sizes.

This person seems to equate procedural aspects—like ease of class registration or switching majors—with the quality of education. For example, your child could major in aerospace engineering at Case Western, where there are about 25 aerospace graduates each year. They would benefit from smaller initial class sizes and guaranteed admission to their major. Alternatively, they could attend Purdue, which graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers annually and offers unparalleled resources, including hypersonic wind tunnels and an extensive range of equipment and facilities. I’m not even sure if Case Western has a wind tunnel.

While a student can receive an excellent education in both programs, Case simply can’t compete with the resources, breadth of classes, or research opportunities available at Purdue. In this sense, the large state university is miles ahead of the small private school for engineering, and its higher ranking reflects this advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:T50 using USNWR 2018 - pre TO, pre pandemic, and not the current methodology that places mobility over academics. To be clear I do not disagree with the institutional policies that promote social mobility, I just disagree that it should be part of ranking methodology.

2018?

Nope.

NP. Why? I agree that 2018/2019 was right around the time that common sense ended. Anything from that time or prior is a useful instrument for ascertaining actual quality of the education

2018/2019 is the proper vintage? Wouldn't that be an actual snapshot from 2018/2019? I understand that you like the criteria from that era but it's out of date at this point. Meaning 2018 criteria has 2018 or older data?

I prefer the criteria applied from 1960 to 2022. I do not value an increase in poor students. I am much more interested in things like instruction, outcomes, caliber of peers, class sizes and number of classes taught by professors versus other students.

You can feel free to value other things

I value the most up to date information when making a decision. How do you plug in the current information into the old criteria? I think you just really like the actual rankings of a certain vintage because you like where the schools are ranked. Do you use old maps even though they might not be accurate?

Ffs. The classroom ratios numbers of tenured professors, research output, and so forth, hasn’t changed in five years, and you know it. The only thing that has changed is the methodology criteria, and the fact that there were three years of glut of people who test poorly and we’re nevertheless admitted.

I’m not sure what has or hasn’t changed with each school ranked by U.S. News. What I do know is that rankings shift from year to year, and some people get really upset about it. They often claim the methodology is flawed—usually because they don’t like the results. Does that sound about right?

The US News rankings are deeply flawed. Two years ago, US News dropped things like class size, the qualifications of instructors, and the number of years it takes students to graduate. Instead, they prioritized the number of Pell Grant students at each school. These changes in the algorithm caused a number of private schools to drop, including some high endowment private schools that give excellent financial aid so that students don't need Pell Grants. Plus, they penalized schools for having smaller classes, professors with PhDs, and allowing the vast majority of students to graduate in four years. US News was clearly on a mission to boost public universities in their rankings.

Which, fine. It's their "magazine." But the effect was to make the US News rankings fairly useless for those who care about the quality of education. Most informed people don't think UC Merced with its 90 percent acceptance rate is a top 60 school. Only 30 percent of UC Merced students even graduate in 4 years. And yet US News ranks UC Merced much higher than hundreds of other schools that most regard as better academically. The whole ranking is filled with nonsense like that. People should look at US News if social mobility is their priority. But otherwise, look elsewhere if academics are important to you.

WSJ ratings are even more flawed than USNWR when it comes to rankings given their stew of ROI adjusted for "starting point" and graduation rates again adjusted for "similar socioeconomic profiles".

Which is why people are looking at Niche. WSJ dropped the ball - Babson at number 2? - with their very peculiar rankings. There's definitely a big space for a credible ranking after US News squandered their legitimacy.

Let’s face it…people are pissed about how Wake, Tulane, Tufts, William and Mary and a couple of others dropped in USNews.

So, fine, let’s use Niche:

- Wake is 48 vs 46 USnews
- Tulane is 69 vs 63 USNews
- Tufts is 47 vs 37 USNews
- W&M is 74 vs 54 USNews


Once more…these schools’ best rating are USNews. Niche, Forbes, WSJ, world rankings…they are all worse.

To a PP's point also using Niche:

Boston College is 43 vs 37 USnews
Boston University is 39 vs 41 USnews

For the privates, there's the solid T50s regardless of ranking outlets and methodology and then there's...."T50"

Let the complainers complain.

A school ultimately is its ranking. If you don't like a school's ranking, go to a higher ranked school. Seems like an easy solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you also talking about schools like Case Western, Tulane that are not technically in US News's t50 anymore?

USNWR is what educators, parents, students look to first for a general sense before true research takes place.

Anyone can quibble with USNWR methodology, etc. ( funny how people complain when the methodology doesn't suit their preferred school), but any ranking in T75 covers any "slippage."

Well the USNWR methodology removed Class size from its process a few years ago. Which is shocking, as many of us (smartly) think that smaller class sizes does lead to better educational opportunities. Much easier to learn in a room with 30-40 students where you can actively ask questions than in a lecture hall with 200+.
So yes, I will complain when the most recent changes basically moved many smaller (under 8K) private schools down 5-10 spots and put large state schools in their place. Because I know the smaller private schools are actually still better schools.

Facts. For example I think BC is a better school than a lot of the massive publics currently ranked above it. And Rutgers is a solid state flagship. But Top 50? Please.

You think BC is better than Cal or UCLA or Michigan? At the end of the day if a school is not currently ranked in the top 50, then it is not a top 50 ranked school. It's pretty simple.

DP. BC's current rank is 37. The PP didn't specify Cal/UCLA/UMich. However, there are a number of other publics ranked above BC: UVA, UNC, UFlorida, UT Austin, UCI, UCD, UIUC.

According to the rankings, these schools are ranked higher than BC, which indicates they are considered better. While someone might prefer BC or wish it were ranked higher than those public schools, the rankings do not reflect that.

What makes a school "better" overall - in this case, publics moving up due to change in Pell weights - does not make a school produce a better graduate and which schools are "better" did not suddenly change just because the ranking changed.

The rankings reflect what US News wants them to reflect.

1000%

So if you believe a large state school is a better education for your UMC+ kid, simply because the rankings include that now, go for it.

I will continue to believe the rankings are flawed and that access to professors, smaller class sizes,a nd all the opportunities that come with a much smaller undergrad population are in reality a better education. I don't need USNWR to tell me that.

Firstly, at most smaller Universities in the T100, your kid can select any major they want. No Hunger Games 2,.0 to attempt to get one of a few slots (if any) if your kid was not Direct Admitted to Business, CS, Engineering, any stem major, etc. I consider it a better education if my kid can freely change majors or add one or add a minor, actually get into what they want and graduate in 4 years. My Flagship state U is T50, ranked (after the changes ) about the same as the top private school my kid is attending. The difference is, my kid did not have to have a 4.0 freshman/soph year to get into the exact engineering major they wanted (they were lucky enough to be admitted at the State University to Engineering, but then you fight for the exact major). My kid was also able to add a CS minor at their 50 private school, at the Flagship U (Top 5 for CS), it is not a possibility, even direct admit is damn near impossible. You simply cannot just take a CS course unless you are in the major already.
So yeah, my kid is getting a much better education. They get ALL THE courses they need the first time---many at State U take 5+ years because they cannot get into classes, they fill up and you are stuck. And if my kid decided to change majors, they can and are not forced into a "non impacted major" like art history or English (almost every STEM/Business/CS/Eng at the State University are impacted and difficult to get into).

So yeah, no way in hell the two schools are similar in quality---my kid is getting a much better education, access to research starting sophomore year (real meaningful research), TAing courses starting in Soph year, etc. No comparison at all

Small schools have a limited number of majors. My kid wants aerospace engineering. Is that available at Tulane? How about something more basic like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? No? But you can major in art history, dance or gender studies and have small class sizes.

Wake only offers “Engineering” as a major. No specialization for mechanical, chemical, or electrical. They graduated their first cohort in 2021. Seriously?

Am I supposed to think Wake is a top school? Does it help that they view engineering as a humanistic experience?

The Whole Engineer
We believe it is important for our students to bring their whole and authentic selves to the classroom, their education and all their pursuits. We view engineering as a science, as an art, as innovation and as a humanistic experience.

If you want to major in aerospace engineering, you don't go to Wake. This isn't complicated. It doesn't mean Wake isn't a good school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

Having kids require grad school because they can’t get great jobs from undergrad sounds like failure to me.

[Anonymous]

When I hear "t50", I don't even really think of specific schools so much as a general way of describing schools that are excellent schools and highly competitive but not the tippy-top. Honestly the difference between a #45 ranking and #55 is completely irrelevant. One isn't "better" than the other, except to be a better fit for a particular kid (and the #55 could just as easily be the better fit for any given kid.

Basically I'm not trying to distinguish around the edges ... it's more like "not top ten, but also not the 150th". So, yeah, I'd think of a school that was ranked #53 in some recent assessment the same way I'd think of the school that came in #49.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

Why should I only consider undergraduate education when considering what are the top universities? I simply disagree on what makes a top university. Top universities should contribute research that furthers our collective knowledge to solve big problems. That is why I prefer the QS and THE rankings. You can’t compare a SLAC’s contributions to academia to a school like the University of Washington or other state flagships.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Are you also talking about schools like Case Western, Tulane that are not technically in US News's t50 anymore?

USNWR is what educators, parents, students look to first for a general sense before true research takes place.

Anyone can quibble with USNWR methodology, etc. ( funny how people complain when the methodology doesn't suit their preferred school), but any ranking in T75 covers any "slippage."

Well the USNWR methodology removed Class size from its process a few years ago. Which is shocking, as many of us (smartly) think that smaller class sizes does lead to better educational opportunities. Much easier to learn in a room with 30-40 students where you can actively ask questions than in a lecture hall with 200+.
So yes, I will complain when the most recent changes basically moved many smaller (under 8K) private schools down 5-10 spots and put large state schools in their place. Because I know the smaller private schools are actually still better schools.

Facts. For example I think BC is a better school than a lot of the massive publics currently ranked above it. And Rutgers is a solid state flagship. But Top 50? Please.

You think BC is better than Cal or UCLA or Michigan? At the end of the day if a school is not currently ranked in the top 50, then it is not a top 50 ranked school. It's pretty simple.

DP. BC's current rank is 37. The PP didn't specify Cal/UCLA/UMich. However, there are a number of other publics ranked above BC: UVA, UNC, UFlorida, UT Austin, UCI, UCD, UIUC.

According to the rankings, these schools are ranked higher than BC, which indicates they are considered better. While someone might prefer BC or wish it were ranked higher than those public schools, the rankings do not reflect that.

What makes a school "better" overall - in this case, publics moving up due to change in Pell weights - does not make a school produce a better graduate and which schools are "better" did not suddenly change just because the ranking changed.

The rankings reflect what US News wants them to reflect.

1000%

So if you believe a large state school is a better education for your UMC+ kid, simply because the rankings include that now, go for it.

I will continue to believe the rankings are flawed and that access to professors, smaller class sizes,a nd all the opportunities that come with a much smaller undergrad population are in reality a better education. I don't need USNWR to tell me that.

Firstly, at most smaller Universities in the T100, your kid can select any major they want. No Hunger Games 2,.0 to attempt to get one of a few slots (if any) if your kid was not Direct Admitted to Business, CS, Engineering, any stem major, etc. I consider it a better education if my kid can freely change majors or add one or add a minor, actually get into what they want and graduate in 4 years. My Flagship state U is T50, ranked (after the changes ) about the same as the top private school my kid is attending. The difference is, my kid did not have to have a 4.0 freshman/soph year to get into the exact engineering major they wanted (they were lucky enough to be admitted at the State University to Engineering, but then you fight for the exact major). My kid was also able to add a CS minor at their 50 private school, at the Flagship U (Top 5 for CS), it is not a possibility, even direct admit is damn near impossible. You simply cannot just take a CS course unless you are in the major already.
So yeah, my kid is getting a much better education. They get ALL THE courses they need the first time---many at State U take 5+ years because they cannot get into classes, they fill up and you are stuck. And if my kid decided to change majors, they can and are not forced into a "non impacted major" like art history or English (almost every STEM/Business/CS/Eng at the State University are impacted and difficult to get into).

So yeah, no way in hell the two schools are similar in quality---my kid is getting a much better education, access to research starting sophomore year (real meaningful research), TAing courses starting in Soph year, etc. No comparison at all

Small schools have a limited number of majors. My kid wants aerospace engineering. Is that available at Tulane? How about something more basic like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? No? But you can major in art history, dance or gender studies and have small class sizes.

Wake only offers “Engineering” as a major. No specialization for mechanical, chemical, or electrical. They graduated their first cohort in 2021. Seriously?

Am I supposed to think Wake is a top school? Does it help that they view engineering as a humanistic experience?

The Whole Engineer
We believe it is important for our students to bring their whole and authentic selves to the classroom, their education and all their pursuits. We view engineering as a science, as an art, as innovation and as a humanistic experience.

For comparison, Penn State has an entire College of Engineering that has been in existence for 125 years with 100k alumni. It offers 14 undergraduate majors in addition to a full graduate program and has about a dozen engineering alumni groups. Wake is just not even comparable for undergraduate engineering.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

Why should I only consider undergraduate education when considering what are the top universities? I simply disagree on what makes a top university. Top universities should contribute research that furthers our collective knowledge to solve big problems. That is why I prefer the QS and THE rankings. You can’t compare a SLAC’s contributions to academia to a school like the University of Washington or other state flagships.

No one is fooled when someone talks about the rank of a school in something they don’t experience. Being great at research doesn’t necessarily mean a school’s faculty and administration prioritize educating undergrads. In fact it often means the opposite.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

Having kids require grad school because they can’t get great jobs from undergrad sounds like failure to me.

You need to learn the difference between learning and training.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's definitely flexible, since we're talking about US News here, which is crap to begin with. It would be nicer if DCUM could all use QS, THE or ARWU.

Why would that be used for U.S. UNDERGRADUATE education? They are largely research rankings.

If I am trying to determine the top colleges and universities, why would I only look at undergraduate education to determine top schools? Last I checked, cutting edge research was a key component of academia.

The argument is, sure the University of Washington advanced using AI to predict protein folding that will speed the development of new medicines, but they have larger Biology 101 classes than Wake Forest. U of W is a much more impactful university than Wake, by far.

Yes, that is exactly what you should look at, nothing more. How well does the school prepare a student over the first degree cycle. If you want to rank schools on research strength that is great, but it is not pertinent to undergraduate education.

At the undergraduate level, engineering, CS, accounting....they are all trades. You'll learn the same basic curriculum at any of them. ABET certified engineering programs all basically teach the same.

There is a reason that SLACs put a far greater proportion of their students into top B schools, Law schools, and PhD programs. They build a better product at the undergraduate level.

Having kids require grad school because they can’t get great jobs from undergrad sounds like failure to me.

You need to learn the difference between learning and training.

You are confused. It’s not that LAC students can’t get great jobs after their undergrad study. Plenty do. It’s that they often have higher expectations than just a good paying job, so go to grad school to qualify for the jobs which require the most education, often after a short break from school where they work in a job that prioritizes preparation for grad school over immediate financial rewards. That’s not for everyone, and that’s fine.