If college is so expensive ... why don't more families get need-based aid?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.

We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.

Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.

Both children will graduate with no student loans.

That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.

That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.

How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?

Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"

Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.

Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page

I’d bet a lot of that is due to Ivy grads being able to go work for dads company, or dads friends company upon graduation — would be interesting to see data on Ivy grad salary alongside family net worth …

Also, I’d bet the majority of the full pay UMC families at the 80-90k/yr schools aren’t having to save for retirement (inheritance) or had homes bought outright for them by family trusts etc. so ya, it might look like a handful of 250k families are affording full pay — but we could full pay too with no mortgage or no retirement to save for…
The trust often pays for the grandkids education too—
so the “UMC” kids at these schools are actually from super wealthy families too.

Full pay, have a mortgage, saving for retirement...no inheritance(grew up poor). Same is true of two of my law partners who have kids at ivy-plus schools. Tell yourself what you want but there are plenty of us who knew to save and do not have family wealth to help.
And, looking back at my ivy friends: the most successful in the larger friend group tended to be poor or middle class at the ivy, now doctors, private equity, partners in law firms, one owns a company they started. Our rich friends were more likely to coast a bit in college and not get into med or law school. They bounced around job to job and never quite found their niche. Some may have gotten daddy's money but none that I know and if it has happened they have not revealed it; they live in a smaller house than we do. Though maybe their parents will be paying for grandkids' college.

I think what you say used to be true re jobs. But not so much anymore. The wealth gap is quite a bit larger than it used to be, plus students used to be able to borrow (reasonably) for an ivy education. That’s no longer the case.

Sorry but no. There are super bright, charismatic merit scholar students getting top jobs and grad schools and making bank. Many are female too.

Drop the tropes about everyone working for daddy’s company or actually being dumb. It will hold YOU back or already has.

Agree with your top comment. My point was these kids aren’t achieving this (higher pay on average) because they’re Ivy League grads. The brightest kids from ANY university probably earn more on average.
But you also cannot deny that the very, very wealthy start with an advantage. And that ivies and $ private schools on balance have more of these types of students, which could account for the increased pay (on average) of Ivy grads compared to other universities.
In other words, it’s not the Ivy that accounts for the higher pay, it’s the student. Smart, wealthy, and connected is a winning combination.

it's always the student (99% of the time). Where you go does not really matter. It's what you do when you are there that does! That is why outside of PE and IB, you will work alongside people from all types of universities, many times those making more than you will have gone to "no name Universities" yet somehow are farther ahead than you (shocking, I tell you, just shocking---sarcasm alert for the impaired. )

One of my kids attended a school range 80-100. The school has plenty of really smart kids, highly motivated kids going far. The school is known for their premed/healthsciences programs, among other things. My kid has a friend who is currently at Cambridge on full scholarship for graduate work---(and hint--my kid is a "Bs and C's get degrees type of kid" and so were most of their friends)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in the $400,000 HHI and saved enough in DC’s 529s that they could go almost anywhere. First DC loves the large, southern publics and with good grades, test scores, and ECs has significant merit (enough to bring down to in-state costs). Will have enough left over to go to grad school.
Why choose a higher cost option for undergrad? We have friends who are hooked into the prestige of a T20-50 over a T50-100. Seems like a total waste of money. But, then again, DC was unlikely to get into a T20 and got the merit at his 2nd choice of school T50-100.

If your kid likes the large public schools, then yes, do not waste your money on $90K privates. In reality, if you don't have the money saved/cannot easily pay it, do NOT waste your money on $90K privates. But if you have saved it or can easily cash flow it (we can do both), it's not a waste of money. it's precisely why we saved that money in the first place.
But for us it's not about prestige, but more about, where does our kid want to attend college and is it the best fit for them. My kid is not at at T25, but got multiple offers in the 30-70 range, many with merit. The best fit for them was the only school without merit, so we are paying. But my kid knows that 99% of people would be attending one of the others, one of the ones with 50-75% of tuition awarded schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:At Harvard: 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.

Are people taking out massive loans or is everyone just actually RICH?

Some people have to decline because they can't afford HYSP after they get accepted. UMD scoops up some of these folks with free tuition.

Yep! There are a lot of qualified kids at UMD and UVA

For some reason UVA doesn't have many national merits, though. So not as many at the very tip top by raw numbers compared to many large state schools.

you do realize that a 207 qualifies for NMSF in many states yet a 220 (3-4 missed questions) will not qualify in Virgnia(and other top states packed with smart kids, like NJ, MA) many years? That is like a 1350 qualifying and a 1560 not in others. If UVA and all schools tracked kids PSAT scores above 207, ie the same national cutoff, 2/3 of UVA kids would have it and UVA would have more than almost all state schools.

I had no idea that NMF score cutoffs are benchmarked by state. That is ridiculous, it should be a single national benchmark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At Harvard: 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.

Are people taking out massive loans or is everyone just actually RICH?

Some people have to decline because they can't afford HYSP after they get accepted. UMD scoops up some of these folks with free tuition.

Yep! There are a lot of qualified kids at UMD and UVA

For some reason UVA doesn't have many national merits, though. So not as many at the very tip top by raw numbers compared to many large state schools.

you do realize that a 207 qualifies for NMSF in many states yet a 220 (3-4 missed questions) will not qualify in Virgnia(and other top states packed with smart kids, like NJ, MA) many years? That is like a 1350 qualifying and a 1560 not in others. If UVA and all schools tracked kids PSAT scores above 207, ie the same national cutoff, 2/3 of UVA kids would have it and UVA would have more than almost all state schools.

I had no idea that NMF score cutoffs are benchmarked by state. That is ridiculous, it should be a single national benchmark.

Why does each state have its own Semifinalist cutoff if the program is NATIONAL Merit?
This is always a hot button question. NMSC allocates the approximately 17,000 Semifinalists among states based on the annual number of high school graduates. That way, students across the nation are represented.

NMSC sets a target number of Semifinalists for a state. For example, California sees about 2,000 Semifinalists every year, Michigan 500, and Wyoming 25. In each state, NMSC determines the Selection Index that comes closest to matching its target number of Semifinalists. If 1,900 California students score 222 and higher and 2,050 score 221 or higher, then the Semifinalist cutoff would be 221 (this assumes that the target is exactly 2,000). Because score levels can get crowded, it is easy for cutoffs to move up or down a point even when there is minimal change in testing behavior or performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.

We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.

Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.

Both children will graduate with no student loans.

That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.

That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.

How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?

Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"

Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.

Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page

I’d bet a lot of that is due to Ivy grads being able to go work for dads company, or dads friends company upon graduation — would be interesting to see data on Ivy grad salary alongside family net worth …

Also, I’d bet the majority of the full pay UMC families at the 80-90k/yr schools aren’t having to save for retirement (inheritance) or had homes bought outright for them by family trusts etc. so ya, it might look like a handful of 250k families are affording full pay — but we could full pay too with no mortgage or no retirement to save for…
The trust often pays for the grandkids education too—
so the “UMC” kids at these schools are actually from super wealthy families too.

Full pay, have a mortgage, saving for retirement...no inheritance(grew up poor). Same is true of two of my law partners who have kids at ivy-plus schools. Tell yourself what you want but there are plenty of us who knew to save and do not have family wealth to help.
And, looking back at my ivy friends: the most successful in the larger friend group tended to be poor or middle class at the ivy, now doctors, private equity, partners in law firms, one owns a company they started. Our rich friends were more likely to coast a bit in college and not get into med or law school. They bounced around job to job and never quite found their niche. Some may have gotten daddy's money but none that I know and if it has happened they have not revealed it; they live in a smaller house than we do. Though maybe their parents will be paying for grandkids' college.

I think what you say used to be true re jobs. But not so much anymore. The wealth gap is quite a bit larger than it used to be, plus students used to be able to borrow (reasonably) for an ivy education. That’s no longer the case.

Wealth “gap” isnt holding anyone back given the handful of tech outliers and and fact that all stray have increased substantially. As has standard of living.

What a world we live in where the bottom quartile has air Jordan’s, iPhones, cable or streaming tv, cars, tons of clothes, expensive hair and nails, jewelry, etc.

What’re you trying to say?

Billionaires making wealth aren’t hurting anyone. They are growing the pie. Don’t fixate on wealth gap bc some outliers invented spaceX, ChatGPT, Tesla, open AI from nothing and became wealthy.

Standards of living in the USA are up significantly across all income deciles the last 20, 40, 60+ years.

What a silly comment. NP, but your health and life outcomes are pretty strongly correlated by your spawn point.

BS on billionaires not hurting anyone- I guess it doesn’t matter when they openly discriminate in their workplace and encourage harassment of black employees, take government subsidies to build their empires and then manipulate our federal government to eliminate those same subsidies once they’re profitable to eliminate competition, or when they’re selling off our data and purposely promoting conspiracy theories and Russian propaganda on their platforms that causes mass disinformation across the nation, or when they are found to purposefully pay women and people of color less and dodging California transparency laws, or when they all send millions into a candidates campaign to receive protections from their monopolistic behavior and irresponsible platform moderation, or when they work together to systemically decrease the pay across an industry, or…

You don’t sound angry at a persons wealth. You sound angry and all worked up about a bunch of systems found everywhere in the world. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

And in the animal kingdom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We do okay (at around $200K HHI until a 50% jump three years ago) but are not RICH.

We planned. Used the Vanguard college calculator and saved $400-$600 per month in the 529 since birth.

Limited vacations. Public school. Not a lot of meals out. DIY home improvements. No family support.

Both children will graduate with no student loans.

That's wonderful, but isn't it crazy that we have created a system where college without loans even for the well to do requires 22 years of significant monthly savings to pay for 4 years of education.

That is why there is a public school system as an alternative. Private education at "Elite" schools is a luxury good, not a basic need.

How many elite schools do you think would agree with you that they are nothing but frivolous luxury brands?

Well the schools wont' agree, but look at the world around you. Look at your job and the companies you have worked for. You are most likely surrounded by people (in your same position, and in the management levels above you, possibly even into the C suites) that attended State University and schools ranked lower than 100. Good chance you have never heard of some of the schools they people attend. Yet they are paid the same as you, might even be your manager or a few levels up. What you accomplish in life is due to what you put into it, not where you attend college. Once you realize that you will be happier and likely "wealthier"

Sounds like a T150 state school grad basic misunderstanding of statistics.

Median Ivy salary is about $50k/yr more than median non Ivy, across whole career.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/quote/30/29191582.page

I’d bet a lot of that is due to Ivy grads being able to go work for dads company, or dads friends company upon graduation — would be interesting to see data on Ivy grad salary alongside family net worth …

Also, I’d bet the majority of the full pay UMC families at the 80-90k/yr schools aren’t having to save for retirement (inheritance) or had homes bought outright for them by family trusts etc. so ya, it might look like a handful of 250k families are affording full pay — but we could full pay too with no mortgage or no retirement to save for…
The trust often pays for the grandkids education too—
so the “UMC” kids at these schools are actually from super wealthy families too.

Full pay, have a mortgage, saving for retirement...no inheritance(grew up poor). Same is true of two of my law partners who have kids at ivy-plus schools. Tell yourself what you want but there are plenty of us who knew to save and do not have family wealth to help.
And, looking back at my ivy friends: the most successful in the larger friend group tended to be poor or middle class at the ivy, now doctors, private equity, partners in law firms, one owns a company they started. Our rich friends were more likely to coast a bit in college and not get into med or law school. They bounced around job to job and never quite found their niche. Some may have gotten daddy's money but none that I know and if it has happened they have not revealed it; they live in a smaller house than we do. Though maybe their parents will be paying for grandkids' college.

I think what you say used to be true re jobs. But not so much anymore. The wealth gap is quite a bit larger than it used to be, plus students used to be able to borrow (reasonably) for an ivy education. That’s no longer the case.

Wealth “gap” isnt holding anyone back given the handful of tech outliers and and fact that all stray have increased substantially. As has standard of living.

What a world we live in where the bottom quartile has air Jordan’s, iPhones, cable or streaming tv, cars, tons of clothes, expensive hair and nails, jewelry, etc.

What’re you trying to say?

Billionaires making wealth aren’t hurting anyone. They are growing the pie. Don’t fixate on wealth gap bc some outliers invented spaceX, ChatGPT, Tesla, open AI from nothing and became wealthy.

Standards of living in the USA are up significantly across all income deciles the last 20, 40, 60+ years.

What a silly comment. NP, but your health and life outcomes are pretty strongly correlated by your spawn point.

BS on billionaires not hurting anyone- I guess it doesn’t matter when they openly discriminate in their workplace and encourage harassment of black employees, take government subsidies to build their empires and then manipulate our federal government to eliminate those same subsidies once they’re profitable to eliminate competition, or when they’re selling off our data and purposely promoting conspiracy theories and Russian propaganda on their platforms that causes mass disinformation across the nation, or when they are found to purposefully pay women and people of color less and dodging California transparency laws, or when they all send millions into a candidates campaign to receive protections from their monopolistic behavior and irresponsible platform moderation, or when they work together to systemically decrease the pay across an industry, or…

You don’t sound angry at a persons wealth. You sound angry and all worked up about a bunch of systems found everywhere in the world. Good luck.

I’m doing great and work in healthcare admin. If you think people aren’t screwing you everyday, you’re a useful idiot at best. I get paid to tell people “no” who need lifesaving treatments. That’s the reality of it, and these systems wouldn’t exist if it didn’t make billionaires wealthier.

I’m not an angry teen, but I’m also not a naive adult, who thinks everything happens naturally.