swimming up someone nvsl

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our team does this when the lanes would otherwise be empty, and they always move up the slower kids in the lower age group who wouldn't otherwise be swimming. The one exception to this is that there's an 8u kid swimming in the mixed age relay instead of a 9-10. This kid has a faster time than any of the 9-10s, so they're doing it to win, but it kind of sucks for the 9-10s who now don't have a chance to swim in that relay.

In mixed age it is a 10 and under spot, so you aren’t swimming up in that case. It’s 10u, 11-12, 13-14 and 15-18

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our team does this when the lanes would otherwise be empty, and they always move up the slower kids in the lower age group who wouldn't otherwise be swimming. The one exception to this is that there's an 8u kid swimming in the mixed age relay instead of a 9-10. This kid has a faster time than any of the 9-10s, so they're doing it to win, but it kind of sucks for the 9-10s who now don't have a chance to swim in that relay.

Really the 8u is only displacing one 9-10, not impacting the others. Our pool did this at the beginning of the year also, but one of the 10-yr olds had a great time improvement and displaced the 8 year old. Maybe that helped serve as motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our team does this when the lanes would otherwise be empty, and they always move up the slower kids in the lower age group who wouldn't otherwise be swimming. The one exception to this is that there's an 8u kid swimming in the mixed age relay instead of a 9-10. This kid has a faster time than any of the 9-10s, so they're doing it to win, but it kind of sucks for the 9-10s who now don't have a chance to swim in that relay.

Really the 8u is only displacing one 9-10, not impacting the others. Our pool did this at the beginning of the year also, but one of the 10-yr olds had a great time improvement and displaced the 8 year old. Maybe that helped serve as motivation.

Realize that it’s 10u for the mixed age relay, not 9-10 and 8u, so you aren’t “displacing” the same as you would for an individual event.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at a mid-division NVSL pool and our team never swims up unless there would be an empty lane. Summer swim is competitive, but it’s not about parsing the rules for every possible advantage.

It's not parsing the rules. It's explicitly allowed in the rules. See 2. POOL AND COMPETITOR ELIGIBILITY, Article IV (c)

You are parsing the rules. Here’s how our team looks at it — the age group is 11-12. All three lanes should be filled by kids who are 11-12. If we don’t have enough 11-12s that week, a 9-10 or 8&u will swim up. But they would never displace an eligible 11-12 irrespective of times.

Do the rules allow us to use someone younger? Of course. But we don’t do it. We would rather have a slower 11-12 have the experience of swimming an A meet. If that’s the difference between losing and winning, who cares. For us, summer swim is not about win at all costs. It’s about fun competition.

If you think otherwise, that’s fine. We are quite happy with our approach. As are our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our team does this when the lanes would otherwise be empty, and they always move up the slower kids in the lower age group who wouldn't otherwise be swimming. The one exception to this is that there's an 8u kid swimming in the mixed age relay instead of a 9-10. This kid has a faster time than any of the 9-10s, so they're doing it to win, but it kind of sucks for the 9-10s who now don't have a chance to swim in that relay.

The 9-10 kids do have a chance to swim in the mixed age relay. They just have to swim faster than an 8 year old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our team does this when the lanes would otherwise be empty, and they always move up the slower kids in the lower age group who wouldn't otherwise be swimming. The one exception to this is that there's an 8u kid swimming in the mixed age relay instead of a 9-10. This kid has a faster time than any of the 9-10s, so they're doing it to win, but it kind of sucks for the 9-10s who now don't have a chance to swim in that relay.

The 9-10 kids do have a chance to swim in the mixed age relay. They just have to swim faster than an 8 year old.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at a mid-division NVSL pool and our team never swims up unless there would be an empty lane. Summer swim is competitive, but it’s not about parsing the rules for every possible advantage.

It's not parsing the rules. It's explicitly allowed in the rules. See 2. POOL AND COMPETITOR ELIGIBILITY, Article IV (c)

You are parsing the rules. Here’s how our team looks at it — the age group is 11-12. All three lanes should be filled by kids who are 11-12. If we don’t have enough 11-12s that week, a 9-10 or 8&u will swim up. But they would never displace an eligible 11-12 irrespective of times.

You don't seem to understand what the words you are using mean. Its literally called out as allowed.

"In team meets, except for the mixed age relay, swimmers may compete in their own and/or higher age groups. They may enter up to two individual events provided no stroke is repeated. They may compete in both the mixed age relay and one age group relay."

There is no parsing needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. There are programs that can run hypothetical meets and optimize points that our coaches use

OP here, We would win, without moving swimmers up, but we do it anyway. I don't get the reasoning.

Is it letting more kids swim in the kid who moved up's age group?

yes, but it is taking away from the kids in the group they're swimming up from, hence my disapproval.

Our team is over 200

They would swim the kids in the age group if they could get points, correct? So if the swimmer is not going to get points and another swimmer works hard and could win points - the swimmer that gets points should win. I would not be fair if a team had nine swimmers in an age group and only four were competitive to be forced to swim the other five when their are younger swimmers that could grab points.

It is summer swim but it is not charity.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. A thousand times wrong. And what a terribly unsporting message to sent to kids in summer swim league. Oof. Stick to club swimming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at a mid-division NVSL pool and our team never swims up unless there would be an empty lane. Summer swim is competitive, but it’s not about parsing the rules for every possible advantage.

It's not parsing the rules. It's explicitly allowed in the rules. See 2. POOL AND COMPETITOR ELIGIBILITY, Article IV (c)

You are parsing the rules. Here’s how our team looks at it — the age group is 11-12. All three lanes should be filled by kids who are 11-12. If we don’t have enough 11-12s that week, a 9-10 or 8&u will swim up. But they would never displace an eligible 11-12 irrespective of times.

Do the rules allow us to use someone younger? Of course. But we don’t do it. We would rather have a slower 11-12 have the experience of swimming an A meet. If that’s the difference between losing and winning, who cares. For us, summer swim is not about win at all costs. It’s about fun competition.

If you think otherwise, that’s fine. We are quite happy with our approach. As are our kids.

We are in the MD league, but what you describe is the rule for us. Shocked that isn't the rule everywhere for summer swimming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If a younger kid is faster than an older kid of course the younger kid should swim. I find it strange that this is controversial. I swam in the NVSL in the 80s and am an NVSL parent now, always swim the fastest kids

Then why have age groups at all. It literally make no sense to have age groups if you just seed the races by times. Why bother having male and female races either then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

Then why have age group designations at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

Then why have age group designations at all?

Do you really not understand this? In general, age group designations make competition fair to younger kids- in the same way that gender groups in general make competition fair to females. It is the less common situation that a kid in a younger age group can beat kids in older age groups.
To explain the point the top 3 9-10 year old freestylers are in the meet. The top 2 11-12 freestylers are in the meet. The 4th 9-10 year old freestyler is faster than the 3 11-12 freestyler. The 4th 9-10 is only swimming if she gets the 11-12 spot. It is completely fair to swim her up to that spot. There is nothing tricky or nefarious about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m at a d2 pool that does this and I guarantee the majority of the team doesn’t like this. Would love an open vote. Of course some do. But no one has ever asked me about it. And my kid doesn’t lose a spot. But I see how it affects those that do

Almost every d2 pool has done it this year. It's not unusual at all for the higher divisions.

Keep in mind that for every older slower kid that doesn't get to swim in an A meet, a younger faster kid does. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain to the faster younger kid and her parents that she doesn't get to swim because a slower swimmer's mommy complained.

Uh, the faster kid can swim in their OWN age group. It's why we have age groups.

Not if the others in the kid’s age group are faster. It’s entirely possible that the kid isn’t the fastest in their own age group but is faster than the third available swimmer in the next age group up, especially if the next age group has fewer swimmers. Our team has done swim ups in that situation and our team is always in a division in the teens.

Then why have age group designations at all?

Do you really not understand this? In general, age group designations make competition fair to younger kids- in the same way that gender groups in general make competition fair to females. It is the less common situation that a kid in a younger age group can beat kids in older age groups.
To explain the point the top 3 9-10 year old freestylers are in the meet. The top 2 11-12 freestylers are in the meet. The 4th 9-10 year old freestyler is faster than the 3 11-12 freestyler. The 4th 9-10 is only swimming if she gets the 11-12 spot. It is completely fair to swim her up to that spot. There is nothing tricky or nefarious about it.

Not a question of tricky or nefarious. No one is saying that. Irrespective of whether the rules permit swimming up, the third-fastest 11-12 should be swimming in the 11-12 race. He/she has earned that chance by being in the top three in his/her age group. Swimming up a faster 9-10 is a great way to get that 11-12 kid to quit the team.