I feel bad for low-income/first-gen students at elite schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like some posters are arguing that the data shows that the FGLI students aren’t academically prepared, I would interpret the 500K+ cheaters are also not prepared and are admitted because of hooks.

See: Kushner, Jared

Typical what-aboutism. The stats didn’t say that rich kids don’t cheat. It says that poor kids cheat at a much higher percentage than rich kids, and still they get worse grades on average.

The 500k+ group is 27.3 percent. The bottom low income group is 32. That’s much higher??

Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like some posters are arguing that the data shows that the FGLI students aren’t academically prepared, I would interpret the 500K+ cheaters are also not prepared and are admitted because of hooks.

See: Kushner, Jared

Typical what-aboutism. The stats didn’t say that rich kids don’t cheat. It says that poor kids cheat at a much higher percentage than rich kids, and still they get worse grades on average.

The 500k+ group is 27.3 percent. The bottom low income group is 32. That’s much higher??

Yes.

That's not much higher. That's your bias talking there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet the discrepancies are worse for FGLI kids at big state schools, where you’re on your own to handle everything and where everything is “pay to play” I.e. you can buy better meal plans, better housing (both more luxurious & closer to campus), have to pay to go to sporting events, greek life etc. JMU certainly isn’t giving kids grants to afford greek life in the way that Princeton gives kids grants to afford eating clubs.

At Harvard, EVERY first year is on an unlimited meal plan. There is no paying more or less to buy a different kind of meal plan.

This is a VERY good point. Especially true of big SEC state schools where Greek life is huge on campus and which have kids from extremely poor families (as in, Alabama or Mississippi poor) and extremely rich families.

I agree with you and the person you're quoting. I went to grad school at a public flagship. There were endless opportunities for students, but only if you could pay extra fees or know how to advocate for yourself and navigate the system. FGLI kids at Harvard, Princeton, etc. are given access to great FA and have equal opportunities on campus. Though, they still will be disadvantaged for internships, they will at least have more access than those at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach in a Title 1 school and the rigor and workload is definitely lacking. Teachers are basically begging students to show up and hand in any work. If one of my high fliers went to a top school, the workload would crush them.

We are not doing the kids or ourselves any favors with low expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they go to those schools and major in useless stuff, then good luck.
Of course it's better than majoring in useless stuff at a mediocre school, however it has more to do with major.

Who has the luxury of useless degrees?
I was first gen and went into engineering and did fine, even though a different science might have been my first pick if money was no object. I knew I had to have a career track right out of undergrad.

What you may not know about being poor is that you don't pick up merchandise unless you already know the price of it. I knew the other degrees were not in my budget.

Lots of lesser prepared kids get weeded out of “useful” majors like engineering, biology, computer science, physics & statistics. Even nursing (although Princeton doesn’t offer that).

Simple reason: Because those URM kids who were admitted only because of AA/DEI can’t handle STEM. In liberal arts they can fudge. They may even be given a free pass if they can’t write grammatically correct sentences. (Not suggesting that ANY liberal arts professors should EVER do that!) But in STEM there is no way to fudge.

+1 a DEI type student in my DC's math class got into an ivy. DC says this kid struggles a lot in the math class, and that they are going to flame out in the math classes there.

Your kid sucks.

Exactly. The kid will get tutoring in college.

[Anonymous]

OP you don’t “feel bad.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is oozing with jealousy & sour grapes.

It sure is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like some posters are arguing that the data shows that the FGLI students aren’t academically prepared, I would interpret the 500K+ cheaters are also not prepared and are admitted because of hooks.

See: Kushner, Jared

Typical what-aboutism. The stats didn’t say that rich kids don’t cheat. It says that poor kids cheat at a much higher percentage than rich kids, and still they get worse grades on average.

The 500k+ group is 27.3 percent. The bottom low income group is 32. That’s much higher??

Yes.

You realize that given the size of the pool of students surveyed, we are talking about a difference that represents a handful of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they go to those schools and major in useless stuff, then good luck.
Of course it's better than majoring in useless stuff at a mediocre school, however it has more to do with major.

Who has the luxury of useless degrees?
I was first gen and went into engineering and did fine, even though a different science might have been my first pick if money was no object. I knew I had to have a career track right out of undergrad.

What you may not know about being poor is that you don't pick up merchandise unless you already know the price of it. I knew the other degrees were not in my budget.

Lots of lesser prepared kids get weeded out of “useful” majors like engineering, biology, computer science, physics & statistics. Even nursing (although Princeton doesn’t offer that).

Simple reason: Because those URM kids who were admitted only because of AA/DEI can’t handle STEM. In liberal arts they can fudge. They may even be given a free pass if they can’t write grammatically correct sentences. (Not suggesting that ANY liberal arts professors should EVER do that!) But in STEM there is no way to fudge.

+1 a DEI type student in my DC's math class got into an ivy. DC says this kid struggles a lot in the math class, and that they are going to flame out in the math classes there.

Your kid sucks.

Exactly. The kid will get tutoring in college.

I spoke to a CMU graduate student who tutored there, and they said that they are seeing a lot more undergrad students who can't seem to handle the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students whose donut hole parents can barely scrape to pay school's bills are in worse position. They don't get money/opportunities from financial aid or wealthy parents so less opportunities than both extremes. Also there is guilt of draining family resources.

Hard disagree. I was a first generation college student and my kids are "donut hole." You have no idea how hard it is to navigate every single step of undergraduate education if you don't have anyone to give you good advice. Where do I live? How do I choose classes? When do I choose a major? How do I find an internship? How do I identify a mentor? Who can help advise me on next steps after getting my degree?

I attended a big flagship university, so there was literally no one to help with those decisions until I basically stumbled into a mentorship relationship with someone who thought I had potential.

If kids of international and immigrant parents can do it then anyone can and now there is a lot of help for ones who seek it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a senior survey at Princeton which had a breakdown for GPA across income levels, first-gen status, etc: https://projects.dailyprincetonian.com/senior-survey-2022/academics.html

50% of first-gen students had a 3.6 GPA or higher, compared to 69% of non-first gen students.

The lowest income students by family household (below 40K) at Princeton had an average GPA of a 3.5, while the highest income students had a 3.72.

32% of the lowest income students reported cheating on an assignment or exam, compared to 21% of students overall.

Only 49% of students on financial aid reported having a job lined up for graduation, compared to 62% of those not on FA. Expected income for those on FA was 84K one year after graduating, compared to 124K for those not on FA. Students on all household income levels below 125K reported expected earnings under 84K, while all those over that level reported at least 115K.

These are considerable gaps. If higher ed is supposed to be the great equalizer, why are Princeton grads seeing such discrepancies corresponding with their background?

Poor students do get preferential admission and free rides at schools like Princeton. Some of them rise to the academic rigor while others don't. Same thing happens to legacy and sports admits as well.

Should they not?

Every young student needs it and should make the best of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students whose donut hole parents can barely scrape to pay school's bills are in worse position. They don't get money/opportunities from financial aid or wealthy parents so less opportunities than both extremes. Also there is guilt of draining family resources.

Hard disagree. I was a first generation college student and my kids are "donut hole." You have no idea how hard it is to navigate every single step of undergraduate education if you don't have anyone to give you good advice. Where do I live? How do I choose classes? When do I choose a major? How do I find an internship? How do I identify a mentor? Who can help advise me on next steps after getting my degree?

I attended a big flagship university, so there was literally no one to help with those decisions until I basically stumbled into a mentorship relationship with someone who thought I had potential.

If kids of international and immigrant parents can do it then anyone can and now there is a lot of help for ones who seek it.

International undergrads come from very wealthy backgrounds (see: the bank account balance requirements in USD to get a student visa).

Tons (most, in my experience) of children of immigrants come from families that came here for a funded PhD, med school residency or a FAANG job. So wealthy families that are in a totally different position than American-born FGLI kids.

[Anonymous]

Most first generation American kids aren't necessarily poor but their parents have no idea of how to navigate grade school or college here in US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students whose donut hole parents can barely scrape to pay school's bills are in worse position. They don't get money/opportunities from financial aid or wealthy parents so less opportunities than both extremes. Also there is guilt of draining family resources.

Hard disagree. I was a first generation college student and my kids are "donut hole." You have no idea how hard it is to navigate every single step of undergraduate education if you don't have anyone to give you good advice. Where do I live? How do I choose classes? When do I choose a major? How do I find an internship? How do I identify a mentor? Who can help advise me on next steps after getting my degree?

I attended a big flagship university, so there was literally no one to help with those decisions until I basically stumbled into a mentorship relationship with someone who thought I had potential.

If kids of international and immigrant parents can do it then anyone can and now there is a lot of help for ones who seek it.

People in those categories who go to college generally have college-educated parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I didn’t go to Princeton, but I was a first gen student and Pell grant recipient at a private college in the mid 00s. It was hard. One huge difference in my experience vs my wealthier peers was internships. I had to work during college, often 2-3 jobs, so I couldn’t take unpaid internships because I needed money for tuition, room and board, food, etc. The lack of experience made it much more difficult to get a job, especially during a recession.

Same for me. It was tough.