Sold a Story and Phonics instruction

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Some kids need a good does of phonics as initial scaffolding and then need less as time goes on. Some kids a good deal more. Other don’t need it at all. But it hurts no one and helps most (even if not with reading, certainly with spelling. And it doesn’t be require that much time to implement along side broader reading comprehension works. So seems like a win-win.

This is it! It is important to teach all children the reading building blocks.

True but the problem is that kids who are already reading don’t need as nauseam basic phonics instruction. Time is better spent on analysis, comprehension, writing, etc…..

It’s the lower performing bottom who needs repetitive phonics instruction and why DCPS is extending it into 2nd grades.

Don’t get me wrong, I support phonics instruction and it’s needed for kids reading chapter books. It really doesn’t help with spelling. What helps is actually having weekly spelling lists or learning actual spelling diagrams. The basic phonics being taught in DCPS is not it.

What you are getting wrong is that it makes no sense to label kids who are still learning/ have been poorly taught phonics “the lower performing bottom”.

What you are getting wrong is that instead of force feeding phonics to the majority of kids who are already reading by 1st and definitely by 2nd, DCPS should do either pull out or push in for the kids who can’t read, have dyslexia, etc…

But of course above is not happening.

The 2nd grade Fundations lessons are 15 minutes at the beginning of the day. My kid has a Lexile score around 1000 and doesn’t complain about them.

PP here. Ok but your kid and all the other kids in 2nd grade who can read would be much better served by actually spending those 15 minutes on doing a spelling lists, learning actual grammar and sentence structure, or doing compositional writing.

I would also argue that 15 minutes of phonics is also not enough time to target the kids who are not reading by 2nd grade. They actually need much more time than that and really should be in pulled out groups.

Lastly, I also suspect that kids in poorly performing schools, where majority are not reading, are not getting just 15 minutes of phonics. The overwhelming majority of the time in ELA is likely spent on phonics.

Fundations lessons are scripted. It could take a bit more time to get through them at a school where almost no students could follow the exercizes, but we're really talking 30 minutes max. They could do other phonics work, of course, but that's not actually the Fundations curriculum itself. Also, if the majority of kids cannot read, more phonics instruction is a good thing in my book. Yes, absolutely, at that point good readers should be pulled for different small group work... but that's exactly what's happening at most good schools.

I also think you're vastly overestimating the percentage of UMC who get no benefit from Fundations/phonics at the beginning of 2nd grade. Even kids who read well can lack certain fundamentals that can be useful for decoding unfamiliar technical words (e.g., science vocab) later on. Phonics also absolutely assist with spelling and our school introduces spelling & vocab lists in 3rd grade that are still largely based on phonics principles. That's also when they start a separate writing class, which focuses on all the things you want. It sounds like you want that to start in 2nd rather than 3rd grade, but even at our non-T1 EOTP DCPS, the majority of 3rd graders struggle at the beginning of the year. (Also my 2nd grader actually did a fair amount of writing last year in small group, but didn't have formal writing instruction like she has now.)

Really the idea that in the course of a DCPS ES day 15 minutes of phonics is a waste of time is just baffling to me. I think you haven't spent enough time in the classroom to see how many 15 minute chunks are just entirely wasted if this is the fight you're picking.

You need to get out of your generalization and bubble. Most schools EOTP are not pulling out readers for small group with more advance work while teaching the rest of the majority of kids phonics. Most schools are not giving out spelling and vocabulary lists.

Then you need to lottery your kid into a better school. The school I'm describing takes the majority of kids on the wait list at the 3rd-5th grade levels (and, in fact, cleared the initial 5th grade waiting list before it got post-lottery apps). By 2nd grade, you absolutely have options. But also, your issue is clearly not with phonics, it's with your school. Because I'm describing the standard DCPS curriculum, which includes vocabulary lists in 3rd grade.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The folks here complaining because their kids are oh so advanced need to take a deep breath. One DC has always read probably 4-5 years above grade level, another has great challenges reading but is very talented in other ways.

Both children benefited from rigorous phonics education. Sure, the first one may have skated by with learning to read by themselves, but they benefitted from a true understanding of word structure from phonics.

But this whole line that your first grader reading Harry Potter can’t benefit from phonics is a little silly.

The folks claiming that what worked for their kid will work for every kid need to take a deep breath.

My kid with ADHD and dyslexia hated phonics instruction and it turned him off to reading. What saved him was a DCPS elementary teacher who told us to keep reading to him, listening to audiobooks, letting him read books like Captain Underpants and Calvin and Hobbes silently, and allowing him to spell phonetically. As predicted, he figured out reading and, slightly later, spelling. Now he’s a literature major who complains that professors don’t allow enough pages in his writing assignments to really dig into topics. Not saying this is a recommended approach, but it worked for my kid.

Your child is the absolute exception if they truly are dyslexic. I am a Orton Gillingham certified reading interventionist with 20 years of experience. Research is clear that structured programs like OG or Wilson are highly successful at helping people with dyslexia learn how to read. In my personal experience, people with reading difficulties do not learn to read by listening to audiobooks and reading graphic novels. Read "Overcoming Dylexia." It explains the science behind the dyslexic brain.

NP. Ok but what gets me are the vocal parents at our school with kids with dyslexia. All they want is phonics, phonics, phonics at the cost of all else. We already have a string phonics program and it’s just one aspect of the ELA curriculum but not the be all and end all. But to them it is.

I can’t even have a discussion with some of them about other aspects of balanced literary. They don’t get that it’s not all about their kid. The school is not focusing on 1 kid, they are focusing on what is good for the group and the majority of kids don’t have dyslexia AND there is already a phonics program in place.

I think people are confused about the components of structured literacy programs. Phonics is one small piece (maybe 15 minutes per day). The other time is spent improving fluency and comprehension, practicing spelling, and developing writing. I am not sure why everyone gets so stuck on this one part of a comprehensive program. No one is doing phonics for an hour per day and definitely not past 2nd or 3rd grade depending on the school.