3 new language immersion schools next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fear mongering in this thread is incredible.

My kid is at OTES and we are thrilled with the two-way immersion. We need a bigger house but we're staying for the school.

If it wasn't going well (and this happens for very, very few kids, it is by no means hit or miss) there's an alternative English-only school we could go to.

It's great that they're expanding this, actually.

MCPS has been teaching reading wrong for at least 15 years according to the current Elem ELA director. I guarantee doing in 2 languages just makes it worse for kids who only speak English. My kid has dyslexia and dysgraphia. Our Title 1 school can’t follow her IEP as it is. Making the school an immersion school just complicates the issue.

It is not only MCPS that has been teaching reading wrong: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.spotify.com%2Fshow%2F0tcUMXBFMGMe8w79MM5QCI%3Fsi%3DT8EpfD7zT3OS9ynw210NNQ%26fbclid%3DIwAR0rtVl91orTSiRW7DKEIIrL1a_HWdxlZbKEGQQ5_-PjYB3UDEwiYVA8iFE&h=AT2RtJcw0UQ1kP-9A1UBGY5AdbKmXPLivij-pRyK-gi-rPLge0vc5OxFUsGMpbvtOKwvW-9FJAIOzHZlOiO0dTEKXKCvRElGO8nsxX3ymM8jxech7zOUJ_byTTgN8Wsvmw&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT3SxSAb8SHLhw77FsjwfOAPpDWl2YzV7vYP0Yvqwu5UrLzydJ7l3ADSMEkSBf1VX5z9qKNkY9W-FqVEYujAvOZZnxdbDJTdTTaddWuqtctmOFFXfpADQDbA6VD6acA6PnOiQkSIbcVLpUKgxLHU7lIYUwUPsPH3fa0V2idTsycacvPSvEeFGA

Sorry, link went wrong: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tcUMXBFMGMe8w79MM5QCI?si=T8EpfD7zT3OS9ynw210NNQ&fbclid=IwAR10FbH7xY_gYxb7we8_L6bgPjpf0ghNZF1VdB92Xe0WLVt02Cg8ZkIlQKw&nd=1

Montgomery County has since switched to teaching phonics

They have not! They continue to have a huge contract with Benchmark. Phonics is only one piece of the science of reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should just offer a language class a few days a week like they so specials but more often for all kids.

That’s not really the point of these programs though- a big part of it is being inclusive for native-Spanish speakers. They get to learn in both Spanish and English. So a special a couple times a week wouldn’t really benefit them.

I get what you’re saying though- it’s very common in European countries for primary school kids to receive instruction in English and other languages several times per week. They pick it up so much faster at that age.

It's kind of a chicken-egg effect though. In general, language instruction in this country is not conducive to producing proficient bilingual speakers. Of those I know who are proficient in a second language, all either were born or lived in a foreign country or had a parent who spoke their native language at home. So there aren't enough kids choosing this path in college and becoming foreign language teachers. Where would MCPS find all the teachers to offer even limited instruction at all schools? Maybe more immersion opportunities will inspire more students to follow that path.

Not to mention, we need to spend more time on reading and math in this country than our European counterparts because Americans have fallen behind.

You understand that reading and math are both taught in the immersion language at an immersion school in MCPS?

Yes, but the standardized test are only in English.

Serious question. Am I supposed to care about these standardized tests? Because I do not.

Easy not to care when your kids passes them. When your kid qualifies as a “priority student” based on low MAP test scores it upends their whole school experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think this is a... bad thing for your English-speaking kids? I've been half-tempted to move to get mine into a dual immersion program. Learning a language and becoming bilingual is such an amazing life skill! (And to get to do it in your own neighborhood school rather than being bussed to some far-away immersion program with kids who are scattered all over the place! And to not have to feel bad about scooping up the bilingual teachers for English-speaking kids but instead knowing Spanish-speaking kids get to benefit too!)

My English speaking child can’t read or write on par with MCPS standards. Any second language will just make things worse.

This. My DS is in an immersion program and doing fine. But learning a 2nd language is not worth it if your kid is struggling in English because the amount of time spend on ELA instruction is significantly less, up to 50% less.

Learning to read and write is a basic essential. Learning Spanish is not. If my kid was struggling in English at all, I would pull him out of immersion.

This. Especially as the translating software gets even better and better. No way your kid will learn every language out there, and it’s so easy to use Google Translate or Say Hi, that being bilingual will be less of a draw in the coming decades.

However, Learning solid Math and Writing skills (in English) will always be necessary.

I think this attitude about learning languages other than English is a lot of what gets Americans a bad reputation abroad for being insular and uninterested in other cultures, making an effort when traveling, etc.

I’m the PP you are responding to. I’m actually from another country and can speak 3 languages. But I recognize that MCPS is doing a crappy job of teaching our kids basic Reading and Writing skills in English. And, don’t forget about the almost complete lack of Science instruction in ES. Maybe if MCPS was doing a better job of teaching our kids the basics, they could offer up more language learning options. That is clearly not the case.

I also recognize that there is no way people can learn every language out there. And that the language software will get better and better.

Has nothing to do with being insular. I have family in multiple other countries all over the world, and the stereotype of Americans being insular and uninterested in other cultures are inaccurate and unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think this is a... bad thing for your English-speaking kids? I've been half-tempted to move to get mine into a dual immersion program. Learning a language and becoming bilingual is such an amazing life skill! (And to get to do it in your own neighborhood school rather than being bussed to some far-away immersion program with kids who are scattered all over the place! And to not have to feel bad about scooping up the bilingual teachers for English-speaking kids but instead knowing Spanish-speaking kids get to benefit too!)

My English speaking child can’t read or write on par with MCPS standards. Any second language will just make things worse.

This. My DS is in an immersion program and doing fine. But learning a 2nd language is not worth it if your kid is struggling in English because the amount of time spend on ELA instruction is significantly less, up to 50% less.

Learning to read and write is a basic essential. Learning Spanish is not. If my kid was struggling in English at all, I would pull him out of immersion.

This. Especially as the translating software gets even better and better. No way your kid will learn every language out there, and it’s so easy to use Google Translate or Say Hi, that being bilingual will be less of a draw in the coming decades.

However, Learning solid Math and Writing skills (in English) will always be necessary.

I think this attitude about learning languages other than English is a lot of what gets Americans a bad reputation abroad for being insular and uninterested in other cultures, making an effort when traveling, etc.

I’m the PP you are responding to. I’m actually from another country and can speak 3 languages. But I recognize that MCPS is doing a crappy job of teaching our kids basic Reading and Writing skills in English. And, don’t forget about the almost complete lack of Science instruction in ES. Maybe if MCPS was doing a better job of teaching our kids the basics, they could offer up more language learning options. That is clearly not the case.

I also recognize that there is no way people can learn every language out there. And that the language software will get better and better.

Has nothing to do with being insular. I have family in multiple other countries all over the world, and the stereotype of Americans being insular and uninterested in other cultures are inaccurate and unfair.

I guess I disagree with the premise that foreign language skills aren’t part of the basics. I didn’t have the opportunity to learn foreign language until 8th grade and although I ultimately learned two, it really hindered me to come at them so late— I’ve never felt fluent in conversation. I went the academic route so languages were essential research and professional skills that I always felt behind in. Moreover, although every child is different, research has pretty consistently shown that learning more than one language from an early age enhances a child’s linguistic ability in both languages. No, you can’t learn every language, but it’s easier to pick up a third language (if desired) later if you have a solid foundation in two already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think this is a... bad thing for your English-speaking kids? I've been half-tempted to move to get mine into a dual immersion program. Learning a language and becoming bilingual is such an amazing life skill! (And to get to do it in your own neighborhood school rather than being bussed to some far-away immersion program with kids who are scattered all over the place! And to not have to feel bad about scooping up the bilingual teachers for English-speaking kids but instead knowing Spanish-speaking kids get to benefit too!)

My English speaking child can’t read or write on par with MCPS standards. Any second language will just make things worse.

This. My DS is in an immersion program and doing fine. But learning a 2nd language is not worth it if your kid is struggling in English because the amount of time spend on ELA instruction is significantly less, up to 50% less.

Learning to read and write is a basic essential. Learning Spanish is not. If my kid was struggling in English at all, I would pull him out of immersion.

This. Especially as the translating software gets even better and better. No way your kid will learn every language out there, and it’s so easy to use Google Translate or Say Hi, that being bilingual will be less of a draw in the coming decades.

However, Learning solid Math and Writing skills (in English) will always be necessary.

I think this attitude about learning languages other than English is a lot of what gets Americans a bad reputation abroad for being insular and uninterested in other cultures, making an effort when traveling, etc.

I’m the PP you are responding to. I’m actually from another country and can speak 3 languages. But I recognize that MCPS is doing a crappy job of teaching our kids basic Reading and Writing skills in English. And, don’t forget about the almost complete lack of Science instruction in ES. Maybe if MCPS was doing a better job of teaching our kids the basics, they could offer up more language learning options. That is clearly not the case.

I also recognize that there is no way people can learn every language out there. And that the language software will get better and better.

Has nothing to do with being insular. I have family in multiple other countries all over the world, and the stereotype of Americans being insular and uninterested in other cultures are inaccurate and unfair.

I guess I disagree with the premise that foreign language skills aren’t part of the basics. I didn’t have the opportunity to learn foreign language until 8th grade and although I ultimately learned two, it really hindered me to come at them so late— I’ve never felt fluent in conversation. I went the academic route so languages were essential research and professional skills that I always felt behind in. Moreover, although every child is different, research has pretty consistently shown that learning more than one language from an early age enhances a child’s linguistic ability in both languages. No, you can’t learn every language, but it’s easier to pick up a third language (if desired) later if you have a solid foundation in two already.

If a student lacks a solid foundation in core subjects, how important is it that they're fluent or semi-fluent in a foreign language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think this is a... bad thing for your English-speaking kids? I've been half-tempted to move to get mine into a dual immersion program. Learning a language and becoming bilingual is such an amazing life skill! (And to get to do it in your own neighborhood school rather than being bussed to some far-away immersion program with kids who are scattered all over the place! And to not have to feel bad about scooping up the bilingual teachers for English-speaking kids but instead knowing Spanish-speaking kids get to benefit too!)

My English speaking child can’t read or write on par with MCPS standards. Any second language will just make things worse.

This. My DS is in an immersion program and doing fine. But learning a 2nd language is not worth it if your kid is struggling in English because the amount of time spend on ELA instruction is significantly less, up to 50% less.

Learning to read and write is a basic essential. Learning Spanish is not. If my kid was struggling in English at all, I would pull him out of immersion.

This. Especially as the translating software gets even better and better. No way your kid will learn every language out there, and it’s so easy to use Google Translate or Say Hi, that being bilingual will be less of a draw in the coming decades.

However, Learning solid Math and Writing skills (in English) will always be necessary.

I think this attitude about learning languages other than English is a lot of what gets Americans a bad reputation abroad for being insular and uninterested in other cultures, making an effort when traveling, etc.

I’m the PP you are responding to. I’m actually from another country and can speak 3 languages. But I recognize that MCPS is doing a crappy job of teaching our kids basic Reading and Writing skills in English. And, don’t forget about the almost complete lack of Science instruction in ES. Maybe if MCPS was doing a better job of teaching our kids the basics, they could offer up more language learning options. That is clearly not the case.

I also recognize that there is no way people can learn every language out there. And that the language software will get better and better.

Has nothing to do with being insular. I have family in multiple other countries all over the world, and the stereotype of Americans being insular and uninterested in other cultures are inaccurate and unfair.

I guess I disagree with the premise that foreign language skills aren’t part of the basics. I didn’t have the opportunity to learn foreign language until 8th grade and although I ultimately learned two, it really hindered me to come at them so late— I’ve never felt fluent in conversation. I went the academic route so languages were essential research and professional skills that I always felt behind in. Moreover, although every child is different, research has pretty consistently shown that learning more than one language from an early age enhances a child’s linguistic ability in both languages. No, you can’t learn every language, but it’s easier to pick up a third language (if desired) later if you have a solid foundation in two already.

If a student lacks a solid foundation in core subjects, how important is it that they're fluent or semi-fluent in a foreign language?

The argument is that the student is more likely to excel in core subjects when foreign language is one of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You think this is a... bad thing for your English-speaking kids? I've been half-tempted to move to get mine into a dual immersion program. Learning a language and becoming bilingual is such an amazing life skill! (And to get to do it in your own neighborhood school rather than being bussed to some far-away immersion program with kids who are scattered all over the place! And to not have to feel bad about scooping up the bilingual teachers for English-speaking kids but instead knowing Spanish-speaking kids get to benefit too!)

My English speaking child can’t read or write on par with MCPS standards. Any second language will just make things worse.

This. My DS is in an immersion program and doing fine. But learning a 2nd language is not worth it if your kid is struggling in English because the amount of time spend on ELA instruction is significantly less, up to 50% less.

Learning to read and write is a basic essential. Learning Spanish is not. If my kid was struggling in English at all, I would pull him out of immersion.

This. Especially as the translating software gets even better and better. No way your kid will learn every language out there, and it’s so easy to use Google Translate or Say Hi, that being bilingual will be less of a draw in the coming decades.

However, Learning solid Math and Writing skills (in English) will always be necessary.

I think this attitude about learning languages other than English is a lot of what gets Americans a bad reputation abroad for being insular and uninterested in other cultures, making an effort when traveling, etc.

I’m the PP you are responding to. I’m actually from another country and can speak 3 languages. But I recognize that MCPS is doing a crappy job of teaching our kids basic Reading and Writing skills in English. And, don’t forget about the almost complete lack of Science instruction in ES. Maybe if MCPS was doing a better job of teaching our kids the basics, they could offer up more language learning options. That is clearly not the case.

I also recognize that there is no way people can learn every language out there. And that the language software will get better and better.

Has nothing to do with being insular. I have family in multiple other countries all over the world, and the stereotype of Americans being insular and uninterested in other cultures are inaccurate and unfair.

I guess I disagree with the premise that foreign language skills aren’t part of the basics. I didn’t have the opportunity to learn foreign language until 8th grade and although I ultimately learned two, it really hindered me to come at them so late— I’ve never felt fluent in conversation. I went the academic route so languages were essential research and professional skills that I always felt behind in. Moreover, although every child is different, research has pretty consistently shown that learning more than one language from an early age enhances a child’s linguistic ability in both languages. No, you can’t learn every language, but it’s easier to pick up a third language (if desired) later if you have a solid foundation in two already.

If a student lacks a solid foundation in core subjects, how important is it that they're fluent or semi-fluent in a foreign language?

If you think of forfeiting the interval of life in which language is most easily learned as providing a "solid foundation in core subjects," we have different definitions of "solid" "foundation" and/or "core."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

IDK, but I doubt it's going to pose a problem we can't handle.

Appreciate the concern, ofc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

Our 3rd grader is the same. Didn’t miss anything in English, above grade level.

The English is too easy and slow and he doesn’t need as much repetitive exposure as kids who are on or below grade level. He can spend that time learning another language.

School comes easy and the “hard” subject for him is the language.

[Anonymous]

Studies show that in early elementary, kids in immersion tend to be behind their peers in ELA. Not surprising since less ELA exposure.

But by upper elementary, these kids catch up and then pass their non-immersion peers.

Above is the overall trend. Of course each kid is different and some may not fall in that majority group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

Our 3rd grader is the same. Didn’t miss anything in English, above grade level.

The English is too easy and slow and he doesn’t need as much repetitive exposure as kids who are on or below grade level. He can spend that time learning another language.

School comes easy and the “hard” subject for him is the language.

MCPS stopped teaching basics like grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. That's why it's easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Studies show that in early elementary, kids in immersion tend to be behind their peers in ELA. Not surprising since less ELA exposure.

But by upper elementary, these kids catch up and then pass their non-immersion peers.

Above is the overall trend. Of course each kid is different and some may not fall in that majority group.

Yes, this. The concern about children falling behind in English (long term) if they devote too much time to a second language in the early years is very …. 1970s. And debunked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

Our 3rd grader is the same. Didn’t miss anything in English, above grade level.

The English is too easy and slow and he doesn’t need as much repetitive exposure as kids who are on or below grade level. He can spend that time learning another language.

School comes easy and the “hard” subject for him is the language.

MCPS stopped teaching basics like grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. That's why it's easy.

PP here, our kid has no problem with above. Reality is you have to fill in the gaps/holes in public education and support at home. It is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

Our 3rd grader is the same. Didn’t miss anything in English, above grade level.

The English is too easy and slow and he doesn’t need as much repetitive exposure as kids who are on or below grade level. He can spend that time learning another language.

School comes easy and the “hard” subject for him is the language.

MCPS stopped teaching basics like grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. That's why it's easy.

They are all taught in immersion!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Call it what it actually is: a gimmick.

IDK. Our third-grader is fluent in a language no one else in our family has spoken for generations. Doesn’t seem like a gimmick to me!

And what did they miss learning in English? It catches up with them in middle school.

Our 3rd grader is the same. Didn’t miss anything in English, above grade level.

The English is too easy and slow and he doesn’t need as much repetitive exposure as kids who are on or below grade level. He can spend that time learning another language.

School comes easy and the “hard” subject for him is the language.

MCPS stopped teaching basics like grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. That's why it's easy.

PP here, our kid has no problem with above. Reality is you have to fill in the gaps/holes in public education and support at home. It is what it is.

Which is fine if kid is neurotypical. But what if there are learning issues? Agree MCPS is incompetent in either advanced or in remedial. Unacceptable for nearly 3.2 billion a year. But then you realize much of that money goes to those who have retired from the system in pensions, healthcare and consulting contracts, not the generation of teachers actually instructing the kids.