is grade deflation really hurting college admissions this year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

I doubt that there are many kids taking 10-12 AP classes when they are getting C's or even B's. While most AP classes do not have barriers to taking them, they do not coddle kids. Kids drop from AP to honors when they struggle, heck kids drop from Honors to Gen Ed when they struggle. There are topics discussing how to go about doing this every year during the first quarter of the school year. Kids who are taking 10-12 AP classes are more likely then not doing well in the classes and on the AP exams and have earned whatever grade that they get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

No, you also choose the school and if you want more rigor, you choose a more flexible school. That sounds pretty terrible for really smart kids. That doesn't sound like in the girls best interests to make really smart kids wait till 8th for Algebra. Is that for the school's needs or the girls? You have to assume all these girls are very smart to get into that school, so it makes no sense not to offer more. But, we found that pretty typical at most privates when we tried to transfer our child to a private. They said we'd have to hold our child back and they'd have to repeat math, do it privately or pay them extra for a tutor/private class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private parent in California. I know comparatively few kids even applying to the UCs any more from private school. It’s been a steep enough decline that apparently the UC admissions people are talking about it quietly as an issue. The reality is that UC does admissions based largely on straight-up GPA and they don’t have the resources to differentiate based on high school profile. Grade inflation is significantly rewarded. That cuts against the applicants from schools that have lower max GPAs.

They have and use resources to compare students against those from their own school.

I’m not sure where this persistent myth comes from, but it is simply not true. Also, it defies common sense. Of course admissions officers compare kids against kids from other high schools. It’s absurd to think they don’t.

I'm an admissions reader.

I don’t believe you, but even if so, I also did admissions for years, and I know you are pushing a myth that simply isn’t true.

I'm glad you have past experience. I'm doing admissions reading this year. I didn't say students are not compared across schools, but I can assure you that at our institution, students are compared to others from their own school.

PP, you sound unhinged. Let it go please.

- NP

Sure. It’s obviously important to you to keep promoting what is transparently not true, so since it’s so important to you, just keep living your fantasies, my friend. The rest of us will stay in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

This sort of attempt at parent involvement seems awful. Schools should do placement, not parents who have no real sense of how kids compare to peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private parent in California. I know comparatively few kids even applying to the UCs any more from private school. It’s been a steep enough decline that apparently the UC admissions people are talking about it quietly as an issue. The reality is that UC does admissions based largely on straight-up GPA and they don’t have the resources to differentiate based on high school profile. Grade inflation is significantly rewarded. That cuts against the applicants from schools that have lower max GPAs.

They have and use resources to compare students against those from their own school.

I’m not sure where this persistent myth comes from, but it is simply not true. Also, it defies common sense. Of course admissions officers compare kids against kids from other high schools. It’s absurd to think they don’t.

I'm an admissions reader.

I don’t believe you, but even if so, I also did admissions for years, and I know you are pushing a myth that simply isn’t true.

I'm glad you have past experience. I'm doing admissions reading this year. I didn't say students are not compared across schools, but I can assure you that at our institution, students are compared to others from their own school.

what happens if there is only one kid applying from a high school?

or the following cohorts: (assume similar extracurriculars since all kids come from similarly resourced families).

NCS: 3.3, 3.2 ,3.4, 35 ACT, No APs, no honors available except in math classes, no APs available.
Visitation: 3.9, 3.85, 3.9 35 ACT 5 APs, honors available in math and language (plus AP in all core subjects)
BCC: 4.4, 4.3, 4.3 35 ACT 12 2 APs, honors available in all classes (plus AP in all core subjects)

Can a standard admissions officer looked at this in a nuanced manner?

It’s going to depend on the school. For the UCs, probably the BCC kid will get in above the others because UC weights raw GPA more heavily (regardless of profile of school). For a school like Purdue, odds are probably about even, maybe slightly worse for BCC because so many BCC kids have identical profiles.

Some schools weight raw GPA more heavily than others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: There has been a significant discrepancy between top private school GPAs and the rest of the field for a very long time. There is nothing new under the sun. I know folks will say that colleges "understand" that Sidwell or STA grade harder than a public school or another private, but the most competitive colleges will not accept candidates with a lot of Bs and C's on their transcript. Even kids with "athletic" value. Not even if standardized tests are excellent

Are you a big 3 parent? Your kid is competing with their classmates (not the kids at the local public) for the most part. How does your kid stack up to their classmates? That's what you need to worry about.

Three kids graduated from a school on Wisconsin Ave. You are both right and wrong. Yes, colleges don't usually take a bunch of kids from a single class - meaning your kid is competing against other kids in their class. But the most competitive colleges will not even look at a kid with a lot of bs and c's. Think NESCAC or schools like Davidson or Wash U and certainly the Ivies. If those bs and cs had been A's, it would be different story.

Oh come on, my kid is at a school on Wisconsin Ave - going to some other school isn't going to magically change A's and C's to A's. And if your goal is A's for this particular kid, then they need to take easier classes and/or go somewhere that expects less. I personally think your kid is probably getting a great education - which is what they should be in school for in the first place. And, there ARE kids at schools on Wisconsin getting no B's. They will do fine in college - even if they don't get into HYPSM! (But I will say that so far the HYPSMs have a hook - and the legacies don't necessarily have the stats to boast along side of the hook - others may perfectly well have stats and hook.)

[Anonymous]

what is TO?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

It sounds like you know what you’re getting, I’m not seeing the problem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

No, you also choose the school and if you want more rigor, you choose a more flexible school. That sounds pretty terrible for really smart kids. That doesn't sound like in the girls best interests to make really smart kids wait till 8th for Algebra. Is that for the school's needs or the girls? You have to assume all these girls are very smart to get into that school, so it makes no sense not to offer more. But, we found that pretty typical at most privates when we tried to transfer our child to a private. They said we'd have to hold our child back and they'd have to repeat math, do it privately or pay them extra for a tutor/private class.

Correct. I agree with you. I will say that while the school does not believe in math acceleration, they do teach 3 levels of math for each class and the honors level is really hard. My daughter is a "math kid" and was chosen to take the summer geometry class and is now in honors pre-calc in 10th grade and it's a tough course. She compares her exams with those that her friend takes in DCPS and there is no comparison. But "slow and deep" for math is not in favor with college admissions these days. It's not easy to quantify the value or what was learned in class beyond the grade given in the class (which again, is generally deflated as most exams have the top student getting around an 85%).

[Anonymous]

[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

No, you also choose the school and if you want more rigor, you choose a more flexible school. That sounds pretty terrible for really smart kids. That doesn't sound like in the girls best interests to make really smart kids wait till 8th for Algebra. Is that for the school's needs or the girls? You have to assume all these girls are very smart to get into that school, so it makes no sense not to offer more. But, we found that pretty typical at most privates when we tried to transfer our child to a private. They said we'd have to hold our child back and they'd have to repeat math, do it privately or pay them extra for a tutor/private class.

Those of us with seniors chose NCS before APs were eliminated, before college admissions went TO, etc. It is an entirely different admissions landscape that our daughters are now trying to navigate. I know intellectually that there are a lot of great colleges that aren’t highly ranked. However, it is hard when you think about that fact that you spent $200,000 on a high school education (which is an unbelievable education!) and your daughter is scoring in the 99% on entrance exams and the best college admit they have is ranked around 150 on USNWR. The lower NCS GPAs are not reflective of their ability, effort and intelligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

I doubt that there are many kids taking 10-12 AP classes when they are getting C's or even B's. While most AP classes do not have barriers to taking them, they do not coddle kids. Kids drop from AP to honors when they struggle, heck kids drop from Honors to Gen Ed when they struggle. There are topics discussing how to go about doing this every year during the first quarter of the school year. Kids who are taking 10-12 AP classes are more likely then not doing well in the classes and on the AP exams and have earned whatever grade that they get.

There are plenty of kids taking 10-12 APs getting Bs and Cs (in fact kids deliberately choose the courses because they know the grades get weighted), and the rigor of those courses is decreasing because kids in the classes aren’t prepared. Also many don’t even take the AP test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:what is TO?

test optional, I think

[Anonymous]

My kid is in lower school, so not there yet, but…if a kid is really a math or stem kid, wouldn’t there be other indicators beyond grades. For example math competitions and science fairs? This seems to be the norm among the Blair and TJ cohorts. If a kid is counting on grades and school name recognition to gain admission to top schools, it’s probably not enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the colleges knew about and respected the rigor of the big 3. Or are publics getting more rigorous and now colleges believe they are comparing apples to apples?

The issue is that raw incoming GPA matters more than before for a lot of colleges because (a) ranking systems (which colleges still care deeply about even though they might moan about them publicly) use incoming GPA in the rankings and (b) the increase in test-optional and no tests considered at all means incoming GPA is much more heavily weighted. Then Covid changed grading substantially in a lot of public schools in particular, leading to these schools where over half the class has 4.0+ and if they even calculate valedictorian (and a lot don’t), there are 100+ of them. Plus, a lot of the public schools have removed any barriers to AP classes, so kids can easily take 10-12 AP classes. Public schools aren’t getting more rigorous (as someone with kids in both, I’d argue the opposite is true), but grade inflation and the impact of the grade inflation has gone up.

Rigor depends on what the student chooses. But, if one child starts Algebra in 6/7 and another in 8/9, one child obviously has a more rigorous education.

yes, but the courses are heavily gate-kept. There is no "choosing" courses at NCS. You can't "choose" to take Algebra in 6th grade. In my daughter's class there was not a single current student who took Algebra 1 before 8th grade. NOT ONE. The school heavily gate keeps the courses. Then about 10 girls were allowed to take geometry before 9th grade in order to accelerate by one grade. You could not petition or beg to be allowed into this cohort. Parents got involved but could not sway the system--the SCHOOL CHOSE. You were either selected or you were not. These 10 girls were allowed to take a summer geometry course (of their own payment) and then were allowed to enroll in Algebra 2 in 9th grade.
Math is the only subject in which girls are accelerated or allowed to choose their classes prior to APs (which have since been eliminated). So there is now really no choice at all except in what subjects one takes as electives but there are not levels of courses with more or less rigor.

No, you also choose the school and if you want more rigor, you choose a more flexible school. That sounds pretty terrible for really smart kids. That doesn't sound like in the girls best interests to make really smart kids wait till 8th for Algebra. Is that for the school's needs or the girls? You have to assume all these girls are very smart to get into that school, so it makes no sense not to offer more. But, we found that pretty typical at most privates when we tried to transfer our child to a private. They said we'd have to hold our child back and they'd have to repeat math, do it privately or pay them extra for a tutor/private class.

Those of us with seniors chose NCS before APs were eliminated, before college admissions went TO, etc. It is an entirely different admissions landscape that our daughters are now trying to navigate. I know intellectually that there are a lot of great colleges that aren’t highly ranked. However, it is hard when you think about that fact that you spent $200,000 on a high school education (which is an unbelievable education!) and your daughter is scoring in the 99% on entrance exams and the best college admit they have is ranked around 150 on USNWR. The lower NCS GPAs are not reflective of their ability, effort and intelligence.

NCS has not eliminated APs in language, math or science. That had been the plan, but they reversed course. Or has there been an announcement that I missed?