Williams or Princeton?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing is more off putting than the Princeton proponent who keeps insisting “it opens more doors.” To many, these two schools are equally prestigious. People live in the real world, not the pages of US News.

In the real world considerably more people have heard of Princeton University than Williams College. Is Williams well known in highly educated circles? Absolutely, but the concept of “opening doors” just refers to the fact that Princeton has more name recognition and a larger and very loyal alumni network. It’s people who don’t read US News who may not be familiar with Williams, or may think you’re referring to William & Mary.

[Anonymous]

The posts here would suggest that all kids who attend Princeton struggle and regret that choice. My child was admitted early and also got into another highly selective school RD, so he has talked to a number of very recent graduates about the experience. I can say with confidence that at least some kids who go to Princeton really love the place. Its resources in terms of contact with faculty is also extraordinary, and its alumni network is also a very strong resource.

It’s also a very serious academic environment, and I hear that majoring in STEM there isn’t easy. But I also understand kids can major in many subjects and still be premed successfully. My kid isn’t premed, though, so this isn’t a subject I know well.

Does that mean Princeton is the obvious choice for everybody and always better? Absolutely not. But it would be also wrong to suggest that prestige is the only thing the school has going for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For premed, I'd be very careful. GPA matters much more than undergrad institution for med school admissions. I know Princeton is quite rigorous academically(from firsthand experience).
I'm not as well informed about Williams.

All this said, outside of rigor, Princeton's quality of teaching and the beauty of the campus are absolutely exceptional. For what it's worth, I have seen even weak students succeed in premed by majoring in sociology, english, or anthropology and taking premed STEM requirements at Rutgers during summers. At Princeton, molecular biology and chemistry are both very rigorously graded and filled with gunners - so be careful those(the easier major + Rutgers trick is a little known work around).

This trick was well known when I went 30 years ago!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Princeton has KNOWN grade deflation. This contributes to their grinder culture and unhappiness among the students.

Needing to keep a high GPA for med school entry nowadays is IMPERATIVE and totally agree that Williams might be the better option. This does not mean one is lazy or wants the easy path. It’s just reality of med school admissions. Worse today but still true back in my day. Cultivating close relationships with professors and mentors for letters of rec would also be easier at Williams than Princeton.

Signed, A Physician

The grade deflation policy at Princeton ended years ago. There just isn’t the rampant grade inflation that exists at some other schools.

The grade inflation at some schools creates its own set of problems. Students melt down over any grade less than an A, and in many cases they channel most of their efforts into activities outside the classroom, since they see that as the only way to distinguish themselves from their peers.

Personally, I would much rather be treated by a physician who worked hard at a Princeton and truly earned their spot at a medical school than someone who ended up at a medical school, even though they weren’t as well qualified, simply because their college was inflating grades to placate its students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Princeton has KNOWN grade deflation. This contributes to their grinder culture and unhappiness among the students.

Needing to keep a high GPA for med school entry nowadays is IMPERATIVE and totally agree that Williams might be the better option. This does not mean one is lazy or wants the easy path. It’s just reality of med school admissions. Worse today but still true back in my day. Cultivating close relationships with professors and mentors for letters of rec would also be easier at Williams than Princeton.

Signed, A Physician

The grade deflation policy at Princeton ended years ago. There just isn’t the rampant grade inflation that exists at some other schools.

The grade inflation at some schools creates its own set of problems. Students melt down over any grade less than an A, and in many cases they channel most of their efforts into activities outside the classroom, since they see that as the only way to distinguish themselves from their peers.

Personally, I would much rather be treated by a physician who worked hard at a Princeton and truly earned their spot at a medical school than someone who ended up at a medical school, even though they weren’t as well qualified, simply because their college was inflating grades to placate its students.

Doctors have to pass medical boards and complete a residency and internship. Why would it matter how hard someone worked as an undergrad?

For that matter, when is the last time anyone checked where any doctor went to undergrad. You might as well also makes sure they went to a HS that didn’t grade inflate to help them get into Princeton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Princeton has KNOWN grade deflation. This contributes to their grinder culture and unhappiness among the students.

Needing to keep a high GPA for med school entry nowadays is IMPERATIVE and totally agree that Williams might be the better option. This does not mean one is lazy or wants the easy path. It’s just reality of med school admissions. Worse today but still true back in my day. Cultivating close relationships with professors and mentors for letters of rec would also be easier at Williams than Princeton.

Signed, A Physician

The grade deflation policy at Princeton ended years ago. There just isn’t the rampant grade inflation that exists at some other schools.

The grade inflation at some schools creates its own set of problems. Students melt down over any grade less than an A, and in many cases they channel most of their efforts into activities outside the classroom, since they see that as the only way to distinguish themselves from their peers.

Personally, I would much rather be treated by a physician who worked hard at a Princeton and truly earned their spot at a medical school than someone who ended up at a medical school, even though they weren’t as well qualified, simply because their college was inflating grades to placate its students.

Doctors have to pass medical boards and complete a residency and internship. Why would it matter how hard someone worked as an undergrad?

For that matter, when is the last time anyone checked where any doctor went to undergrad. You might as well also makes sure they went to a HS that didn’t grade inflate to help them get into Princeton.

Don’t worry anyone who gets into med school these days “earned” their spot. MCAT are still important. The issue is at Princeton (prior poster who went there), they teach at a level for the sciences that assumes students want to pursue careers in science research. The TAs are awful. A basic class to get into med school like organic chemistry becomes a true nightmare and many people fail. You need to know the basics of orgo for med school- you don’t need to know the depths of it and compete with literal geniuses who want to become organic chemists.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I would much rather be treated by a physician who worked hard at a Princeton and truly earned their spot at a medical school than someone who ended up at a medical school, even though they weren’t as well qualified, simply because their college was inflating grades to placate its students.

This comment is ridiculous. I have a kid in med school now. No one gets into med school just because their undergrad might have inflated GPAs. They still have to do well on the MCAT, have research, complete lengthy applications with essays and personal statement, and interview. Only roughly 50% of med school applicants are accepted each cycle. All this to support - I wouldn’t be worried about where my doctor went to undergrad! And FWIW, my kid went to an HYP, so this is not sour grapes.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know a single student at Princeton who truly was committed to pursuing a medical career who didn’t get into med school.

Orgo is a tough class at many universities across the nation.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/10/25/reflections-failing-organic-chemistry-opinion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I would much rather be treated by a physician who worked hard at a Princeton and truly earned their spot at a medical school than someone who ended up at a medical school, even though they weren’t as well qualified, simply because their college was inflating grades to placate its students.

This comment is ridiculous. I have a kid in med school now. No one gets into med school just because their undergrad might have inflated GPAs. They still have to do well on the MCAT, have research, complete lengthy applications with essays and personal statement, and interview. Only roughly 50% of med school applicants are accepted each cycle. All this to support - I wouldn’t be worried about where my doctor went to undergrad! And FWIW, my kid went to an HYP, so this is not sour grapes.

With all due respect, the point is that Princeton remains rigorous at the undergraduate level in a way that some of its once-peer schools - who have surrendered completely to the idea that students are customers who must always be happy and free from any disappointment - are not. If I know a doctor attended Princeton as an undergrad, it is a plus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How is this even a question? it's princeton.

If you’re going premed, it’s definitely a choice. Grades matter most.

[Anonymous]

Onto Williams, the only thing I do know about the school is that it has a sporty/athletic inclination. This is one aspect of LACs that I think is often overlooked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The posts here would suggest that all kids who attend Princeton struggle and regret that choice. My child was admitted early and also got into another highly selective school RD, so he has talked to a number of very recent graduates about the experience. I can say with confidence that at least some kids who go to Princeton really love the place. Its resources in terms of contact with faculty is also extraordinary, and its alumni network is also a very strong resource.

It’s also a very serious academic environment, and I hear that majoring in STEM there isn’t easy. But I also understand kids can major in many subjects and still be premed successfully. My kid isn’t premed, though, so this isn’t a subject I know well.

Does that mean Princeton is the obvious choice for everybody and always better? Absolutely not. But it would be also wrong to suggest that prestige is the only thing the school has going for it.

Yes you can major in anything and be premed but you still have to take certain science and math classes which are known to be particularly difficult at Princeton (my source here is current students).

[Anonymous]

The road to being a physician is a long and often difficult one. It’s filled with emotional highs and lows, exhaustion and exhilaration. Go where you feel best and enjoy the journey.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two recent grads of family friends both wanted med school -the Princeton grad with good but not perfect grades ended up at Pitt - the Virginia Tech grad with slightly better grades ended up at Penn…as others have stated grades matter more than school if this is your track.

Penn is one of the best med schools

That was PP’s point…grades in undergrad matter more for med school admission than where you go to undergrad.

On the other hand, most people outside of the NE haven’t heard of Williams. It would be hard to encourage a kid to turn down Princeton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For premed, I'd be very careful. GPA matters much more than undergrad institution for med school admissions. I know Princeton is quite rigorous academically(from firsthand experience).
I'm not as well informed about Williams.

All this said, outside of rigor, Princeton's quality of teaching and the beauty of the campus are absolutely exceptional. For what it's worth, I have seen even weak students succeed in premed by majoring in sociology, english, or anthropology and taking premed STEM requirements at Rutgers during summers. At Princeton, molecular biology and chemistry are both very rigorously graded and filled with gunners - so be careful those(the easier major + Rutgers trick is a little known work around).

This trick was well known when I went 30 years ago!

The Rutgers trick is no longer possible as medical schools require the core curriculum be taken at a student’s home institution.