The bible says homosexuality is a sin, right?

[Anonymous]

I know there are plenty of people here who say that the Bible teaches them that homosexuality is a sin, and who cite the Bible as the last word on the subject, as incontrovertible justification for their position.

I was reading the comments (gah!) here http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/09/17/if-i-have-gay-children-four-promises-from-a-christian-pastorparent/, and I wanted to ask a Bible-quoting person for their thoughts on the context question. I don't have access to any fundamentalist Christians in my life, so figured this was as good a place as any.

You'd say that the Bible's approval of slavery and wife-beating and all the various reasons to put someone to death (working on the Sabbath, for example, according to the Bible, is punishable by death) was from a different time and place, and can safely be disregarded, right? (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Not to mention the prohibition against wearing two different fibers and all the food rules and such. So how come it's ok to ignore those rules, and it's ok to condemn slavery while the Bible defends it, but the homosexuality stuff hasn't been similarly let go as times change? How do you, as a Bible-believing Christian, square the inconsistency with which the Bible is actually followed, and the passion with which you defend that ONE bit?

Thanks for explaining.

[Anonymous]

Dude. Become a Buddhist.

Buddhism is all about balance in life and they do not have their eyes in your bedroom and their minds in the gutter all the time.

[Anonymous]

I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

That's a great start, thank you. If I understood you correctly, the answer is that the OT can be dismissed, but the NT cannot. But it is very clear that the NT was also subject to social norms that we consider to be outrageous now. (Slavery again.) Given that Christians accept that times and acceptable behaviors have changed, why not that one?

I will mention that I've only ever heard anyone quote Leviticus on the subject. And what kind of a world would this be if we tried to follow all of THOSE rules!?

You understand why it feels like mean-spirited cherry-picking, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

Not the OP who asked the question but as a Christian, I focus mainly on the teachings of Jesus Christ himself. It is not that I disregard the other parts of the Bible but I find there is too much selectivity in terms of which verses and admonitions are given emphasis.

For example, Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (ESV)

This is a verse that is sometimes quoted by fundamentalists to support their contention as to homosexuality being a sin. Yet these very same people will ignore the part about putting homosexuals to death - and thankfully so. But it still represents selectivity as to the parts that need to be obeyed.

And selectivity extends to other sins: “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” Leviticus 20:10

Yet even fundamentalists don't require such a punishment for adultery. In fact, many fundamentalist churches actually remarry divorced couples where one or both committed adultery.

So, to reiterate, selectivity is very much in vogue when it comes to which parts of the Bible are observed literally and which parts are interpreted more broadly.

Follow the teachings of Christ and you will see that much of those teachings remain as relevant today as they were in His time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

That's a great start, thank you. If I understood you correctly, the answer is that the OT can be dismissed, but the NT cannot. But it is very clear that the NT was also subject to social norms that we consider to be outrageous now. (Slavery again.) Given that Christians accept that times and acceptable behaviors have changed, why not that one?

I will mention that I've only ever heard anyone quote Leviticus on the subject. And what kind of a world would this be if we tried to follow all of THOSE rules!?

You understand why it feels like mean-spirited cherry-picking, right?

No, I did not say, nor do I believe, that Christians can dismiss the OT. While there are many differences in approach between the OT and the NT, the Bible is one collection of books with one consistent message throughout. It unfolds throughout history, just as mankind, history and his relationship with God develops, but the story is the same. The NT brings to life many of the prophecies of the OT, for example.

Remember that the OT was given to the nation of Israel, not to "Christians." It was designed to create with these people a relationship with God, show them how to worship HIm and attone for sin, and make the Israelites distinct from other nations as God's chosen people. This OT law is not therefore "intended" for Christians of today. The death and resurection of Jesus took the place of that. But OT law remains a guidepost for how to love God and love your neighbor, even as yourself, as Jesus said to do. (E.g the 10 commandments). 9 of the 10 commandments are clearly repeated in the NT.

As for mean-spirited cherry picking on homosexuality, yes, absolutely, I understand how it can come across that way. And that is tragic. Homosexuality may be a sin in the eyes of Christians, but we know that we are all sinners, and that all of us only have hope through Jesus, no matter what particular sin may plague us individually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

where in the NT does it say this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

Not the OP who asked the question but as a Christian, I focus mainly on the teachings of Jesus Christ himself. It is not that I disregard the other parts of the Bible but I find there is too much selectivity in terms of which verses and admonitions are given emphasis.

For example, Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (ESV)

This is a verse that is sometimes quoted by fundamentalists to support their contention as to homosexuality being a sin. Yet these very same people will ignore the part about putting homosexuals to death - and thankfully so. But it still represents selectivity as to the parts that need to be obeyed.

And selectivity extends to other sins: “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” Leviticus 20:10

Yet even fundamentalists don't require such a punishment for adultery. In fact, many fundamentalist churches actually remarry divorced couples where one or both committed adultery.

So, to reiterate, selectivity is very much in vogue when it comes to which parts of the Bible are observed literally and which parts are interpreted more broadly.

Follow the teachings of Christ and you will see that much of those teachings remain as relevant today as they were in His time.

And you can just be a good person, without following any ancient teacher and without worrying about contradictions in an ancient book or myths and stories

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

That's a great start, thank you. If I understood you correctly, the answer is that the OT can be dismissed, but the NT cannot. But it is very clear that the NT was also subject to social norms that we consider to be outrageous now. (Slavery again.) Given that Christians accept that times and acceptable behaviors have changed, why not that one?

I will mention that I've only ever heard anyone quote Leviticus on the subject. And what kind of a world would this be if we tried to follow all of THOSE rules!?

You understand why it feels like mean-spirited cherry-picking, right?

No, I did not say, nor do I believe, that Christians can dismiss the OT. While there are many differences in approach between the OT and the NT, the Bible is one collection of books with one consistent message throughout. It unfolds throughout history, just as mankind, history and his relationship with God develops, but the story is the same. The NT brings to life many of the prophecies of the OT, for example.

Remember that the OT was given to the nation of Israel, not to "Christians." It was designed to create with these people a relationship with God, show them how to worship HIm and attone for sin, and make the Israelites distinct from other nations as God's chosen people. This OT law is not therefore "intended" for Christians of today. The death and resurection of Jesus took the place of that. But OT law remains a guidepost for how to love God and love your neighbor, even as yourself, as Jesus said to do. (E.g the 10 commandments). 9 of the 10 commandments are clearly repeated in the NT.

As for mean-spirited cherry picking on homosexuality, yes, absolutely, I understand how it can come across that way. And that is tragic. Homosexuality may be a sin in the eyes of Christians, but we know that we are all sinners, and that all of us only have hope through Jesus, no matter what particular sin may plague us individually.

nice job of rationalization. Are you a theologian?

[Anonymous]

Thank you again. Very thoughtful.

I am an atheist, and I find the teachings of Jesus to have a great deal of value. I just don't see any value in the concept of sin. In fact, I find the concept of sin to be antithetical to his teachings. Everything that is forbidden is redundant, as it is covered in the one positive tenant, to love your neighbor. I wonder if there is hope that modern Christianity will continue to shed the outdated literal interpretations that today only serve to prevent people from loving one another as Jesus taught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

where in the NT does it say this?

New PP. I'm a practicing Catholic and I know the party line is that homosexuality is a sin, although individual progressive churches will push that line. The thing is, I believe gay, lesbian, transgender etc people are born that way. And many experience a great amount of anguish in coming to this realization. And they can only find peace in accepting themselves for who they are. So if their Creator made them gay and lesbian, am I to believe that their Creator-who we Christians believe is a loving Father- wants them to deny their truth? We're to believe they are somehow divinely burdened with a sinful self and it's their lot in life to shoulder that burden and deny themselves love, lifelong companionship, and the creation of families? I can't and don't believe that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

That's a great start, thank you. If I understood you correctly, the answer is that the OT can be dismissed, but the NT cannot. But it is very clear that the NT was also subject to social norms that we consider to be outrageous now. (Slavery again.) Given that Christians accept that times and acceptable behaviors have changed, why not that one?

I will mention that I've only ever heard anyone quote Leviticus on the subject. And what kind of a world would this be if we tried to follow all of THOSE rules!?

You understand why it feels like mean-spirited cherry-picking, right?

No, I did not say, nor do I believe, that Christians can dismiss the OT. While there are many differences in approach between the OT and the NT, the Bible is one collection of books with one consistent message throughout. It unfolds throughout history, just as mankind, history and his relationship with God develops, but the story is the same. The NT brings to life many of the prophecies of the OT, for example.

Remember that the OT was given to the nation of Israel, not to "Christians." It was designed to create with these people a relationship with God, show them how to worship HIm and attone for sin, and make the Israelites distinct from other nations as God's chosen people. This OT law is not therefore "intended" for Christians of today. The death and resurection of Jesus took the place of that. But OT law remains a guidepost for how to love God and love your neighbor, even as yourself, as Jesus said to do. (E.g the 10 commandments). 9 of the 10 commandments are clearly repeated in the NT.

As for mean-spirited cherry picking on homosexuality, yes, absolutely, I understand how it can come across that way. And that is tragic. Homosexuality may be a sin in the eyes of Christians, but we know that we are all sinners, and that all of us only have hope through Jesus, no matter what particular sin may plague us individually.

Please, PP, when you post, try to remember that you do not speak for all Christians. This Christian does not regard homosexuality as a sin, but as an inborn trait over which the person has no more control than they do the color of their eyes or hair.

[Anonymous]

NP here. I'm another Christian who focusses on the teachings of Christ, and he is not recorded as having addressed homosexuality. I do not believe homosexuals are sinners, in fact, as an Episcopalian, I know several homosexual priests.

In the New Testament, Paul addresses homosexuality, twice I believe. But Paul is not Christ.

Re the Old Testament, Jesus was very clear that he was deemphasizing all the Old Testament rules, for example about what you eat and how you eat it. Most Christians take this to apply to other Old Testament rules, for example about your clothing. There are passages in the gospels where Jesus says that the two rules that matter concern loving God and loving your enemy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm happy to try, with two points made before starting. 1) I am not a fundamentalist Christian and 2) I have read your question several times and still am not completely sure of what you are asking, so apologies if I am off-base or incomplete here.

I think what I'm reading is this: You want to know why Christians say that many Old Testament "bannings" are now irrelevant to society and thus can be ignored in modern context, but homosexuality is not one of them. OT teachings forbidding homosexuality are still considered sin, even in modern age. Is that right?

The Bible is consistent throughout the OT and the NT that homosexuality is sin, even though Jesus Himself never discusses the topic. There are numerous versus in the NT that describe homosexuality as shameful, sinful, immoral, a wrongdoing, etc. The major difference is that the NT offers hope through Jesus Christ for those who are caught up in the bonds of homosexuality, actively practicing or not.

What am I missing from your question?

Not the OP who asked the question but as a Christian, I focus mainly on the teachings of Jesus Christ himself. It is not that I disregard the other parts of the Bible but I find there is too much selectivity in terms of which verses and admonitions are given emphasis.

For example, Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (ESV)

This is a verse that is sometimes quoted by fundamentalists to support their contention as to homosexuality being a sin. Yet these very same people will ignore the part about putting homosexuals to death - and thankfully so. But it still represents selectivity as to the parts that need to be obeyed.

And selectivity extends to other sins: “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” Leviticus 20:10

Yet even fundamentalists don't require such a punishment for adultery. In fact, many fundamentalist churches actually remarry divorced couples where one or both committed adultery.

So, to reiterate, selectivity is very much in vogue when it comes to which parts of the Bible are observed literally and which parts are interpreted more broadly.

Follow the teachings of Christ and you will see that much of those teachings remain as relevant today as they were in His time.

And you can just be a good person, without following any ancient teacher and without worrying about contradictions in an ancient book or myths and stories

The problem with this theory, PP, is that you can never be "good" enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you again. Very thoughtful.

I am an atheist, and I find the teachings of Jesus to have a great deal of value. I just don't see any value in the concept of sin. In fact, I find the concept of sin to be antithetical to his teachings. Everything that is forbidden is redundant, as it is covered in the one positive tenant, to love your neighbor. I wonder if there is hope that modern Christianity will continue to shed the outdated literal interpretations that today only serve to prevent people from loving one another as Jesus taught.

I am intrigued by your choice of words here; would you please elaborate on this?

Surely you agree that sin/ evil/ whatever you want to call it does, objectively, exist in the world? And if so, isn't your statement sort of like saying "I just don't see any value in the concept of the color red, or the number eight." Just because you don't "believe" in them, doesn't mean they don't exist and influence many things around you -- even if you want to state that RED or EIGHT don't exist in your world!