the case for not divorcing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

+1. It’s strange how the narrative is how the adults are so mature and selfless that they manage to pull off equitably splitting a household without any seams.

If you guys are so good at that, and willing to put in that much work, either you’re lying or you could have stayed married.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

^ I forgot to mention all the counseling these kids are in. Their parents divorced messed them up so bad they list counseling as one of their extracurricular activities.

[Anonymous]

My observation is that the people whose marriages fall apart when kids are young tend to be people who have a lot of immaturity and therefor their divorces also tend to be pretty bad for the kids. Of course people like this view it as a choice between being miserable in their marriage or having the kind of contentious divorce where they snipe at each other via text messages and do drop offs at each others houses without speaking. These are emotionally immature people. That's why their marriage didn't work during the challenging little kid years, and it's also why they can't pull it together enough to be functional coparents and make some sacrifices even in divorce (like limiting where they live, agreeing to ground rules about new relationships, even postponing remarriage or not having more kids with new partners) for the sake of their existing children.

You don't have to tell someone who is emotionally mature that divorce is not ideal for kids, or that being a parent means giving up some of your comfort or ease or wants in order to give kids what they need. They know. They will not wind up in a marriage where they fight all the time because emotionally mature people have the communication and problem solving skills to resolve conflict without constant fighting and sniping at each other. They might go to couples therapy but it has a better chance of actually working because they have qualities like humility, not needing to get the last word in always, being willing to compromise. If they truly cannot work it out for some reason (infidelity, mental illness, a fundamental lack of love or respect), they STILL have the maturity to divorce in a way that will minimize negative impacts on kids, putting their kids' needs first even in the divorce.

I do think kids are better off in a family with two parents and not shuttling between families. But there is a way to divorce without really harming the kids. It's just that the people most likely to divorce tend not to have the skills to pull that off, because their inability to work through their issues in their marriage will often lead to being unable to work through their issues in divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

I don't encounter a ton of miserable marriage (at least not outwardly -- if they are unhappy, they are doing a good job of keeping it under wraps and their kids seem to be doing okay too). I sadly also don't see a lot of healthy divorces with young kids. People with no kids? Sure. People with older kids or kids out of the house? Also sure. Healthy divorces with kids under age 12 or so? I don't see them. I see a LOT of immature, embarrassing, hurtful-to-the-kids behavior. And that's just what I'm privy to as a friend of the family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

There is a middle ground between tolerating poor treatment and getting divorced. You also have the option of standing up for yourself in your marriage and then using communication to work it out.

If standing up for yourself in your marriage undoes the entire relationship, it actually was an abusive relationship. In a non-abusive relationship, partners can tell each other when something doesn't work for them and they can work it out, because even if people aren't super attracted to each other anymore or you've grown about, if there isn't abuse, you should still have baseline respect for each other. With baseline respect, shared love for your kids, and a few relationship skills, I do think most people could make it work well enough to model a health relationship for their kids for 10 years or so. Then if you still want to leave, leave. But your kids get a stable home with both parents present the whole time. IMO it is very much worth for them and not at all modeling an unhealthy relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

Do you consider calling strangers names part of normal adult interaction? Just trying to get a baseline on what your kids deal with in their “unbroken” home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

Do you consider calling strangers names part of normal adult interaction? Just trying to get a baseline on what your kids deal with in their “unbroken” home.

When you're rude and condescending you get what you get. You keep trying to figure out what's going on in my home and what my kids are like for some reason. You are a stranger after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm staying and I have no idea if it's the right choice or not. I don't know how everyone's so sure either way. I had one couple's therapist who thought we were great together and one was giving me domestic abuse hotlines. For right now I'm getting as much space as I can while still living together, and we'll see how it goes.

In a very similar situation. It’s amazing how different counselors interpret the same situation. Do you love DH? I do so we are trying to figure it out.

I thought for a long time that was enough, that I could make this work through love or sheer force of commitment to my kids or whatever. I don't think that anymore.

Now the questions I ask myself are more like, well, he's a good parent and pretty normal day to day, but when he gets stressed out he talks about leaving me and then acts like he's forgotten about it the next day and wants everything to be normal. Can I handle that? Does it matter what the frequency is? Or: he acts supportive of my career, but he's shared that in fact he feels jealous and angry about it. Can I live with that so long as he's generally pleasant? Or, we rarely fight and never in front of our kids, but a little part of me is probably dying every day by being with someone who once expressed that he enjoys hurting me. What do I owe my kids here vs. myself?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't know why people divorced. People are embarrassed about being abused. They may not think it's your business. They may think it's in the best interest of their kids to not share what happened.

People have repeatedly said this doesn't apply in cases of abuse, end of story. It doesn't matter what I know. OP and others are making the argument that ABSENT any abuse, there is a strong argument for staying together "for the sake of the kids" so that your kids get the benefit of a two-parent, married household, which many studies have shown is ultimately better for the development of children. Sure, there may be exceptions. Exceptions make the rule. In most cases, the kids are probably better off if the parents find a way to work through non-abuse issues and stick it out at least until the kids are grown.

But what do you qualify as abuse? Obviously hitting, screaming, cursing, but what about the people who post that their spouse refuses to help around the house? Stays up until the early hours gaming and then won't lift a finger at home even though they both work? Do you think those people aren't trying to work it out? One side is, the other side doesn't care. And by the way, I'm not one of those people, but I feel for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

You clearly don't know anyone in a high-conflict marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

I'm not divorced so I have no dog in this fight, but why on earth do you think that two people who won't speak to each other because they're divorced would be speaking to each other if they're married?!? Happily married people don't get divorced. Newsflash.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

I'm not divorced so I have no dog in this fight, but why on earth do you think that two people who won't speak to each other because they're divorced would be speaking to each other if they're married?!? Happily married people don't get divorced. Newsflash.

I see one person blindsided with a lot of the divorces and then all the arguments about custody and money. It really brings out the ugly side, noticeable to bystanders. These were not abusive situations. One person felt unfulfilled or bored or whatever. The divorce certainly introduced a lot more conflict and anguish as people are in it to win it, and not give an inch. I doubt you know a lot of happy amicably divorced people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

^ I forgot to mention all the counseling these kids are in. Their parents divorced messed them up so bad they list counseling as one of their extracurricular activities.

My kids are little so most of their friends’ parents are still together. The one kid whose parents are divorced is the most irritable, cries on the playground and always just wants to be held and cuddled. The thing is, both his parents are really nice people and they live a block away from each other and attend many events together. One case is not enough for generalizable conclusions but even when the divorce is between mature, loving adults, it’s still tough for a kid.

That doesn’t mean divorce is not the right answer. But it doesn’t change the fact it’s tough for a kid.