the case for not divorcing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

I'm not divorced so I have no dog in this fight, but why on earth do you think that two people who won't speak to each other because they're divorced would be speaking to each other if they're married?!? Happily married people don't get divorced. Newsflash.

I see one person blindsided with a lot of the divorces and then all the arguments about custody and money. It really brings out the ugly side, noticeable to bystanders. These were not abusive situations. One person felt unfulfilled or bored or whatever. The divorce certainly introduced a lot more conflict and anguish as people are in it to win it, and not give an inch. I doubt you know a lot of happy amicably divorced people.

Have multiple people really told you they were leaving their marriages out of boredom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people don't realize that there will be rough years and rough periods of time. As a kid and teen I was always sad my parents didn't have date nights and didn't hold hands, etc. As an adult I'm thrilled that they're married. They're such wonderful grandparents together and they get 2x the grandparent time that they'd get if they were divorced. They take my kids to dinner and on outings constantly which would be too much for just one of them to do. Now that they're retired, they enjoy spending time together so much more.

And most importantly to me, they help each other through health crises and accompany each other to doctor's appts. They manage their house together too.

+100. I’m so glad my folks weathered the storm. I didn’t have an adult’s understanding either, so my perspective as a teen was not even accurate.

You don't have an adult understanding. Iu have self centered ness

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

But they do. This is what these people believe.
Please pay attention to the typed of threads being posted and posted repeatedly here 1. Get married and get married early.
2. Don't be too picky especially if you're a woman. Don't break up with a boy friend you might not get another chance.
3
If you marry over 30 you are old and will likely never have kids or if you become a parent in anyway but a heterosexual marriage you are wrong and wasting your life.

4. You better be a SAHM or you're neglecting your kids

5. Men cannot be equal parents or partners and you really shouldn't expect that of them.

6. You're dirty if you have dated to have more than one sexual partner.


Reminiscent of my evangelical/ purity culture upbringing.

And you all should be well aware of the push to take America back for Jesus and that there's a huge effort to push these ideas online similar to election propaganda.

I'm sure op will deny it though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

But they do. This is what these people believe.
Please pay attention to the typed of threads being posted and posted repeatedly here 1. Get married and get married early.
2. Don't be too picky especially if you're a woman. Don't break up with a boy friend you might not get another chance.
3
If you marry over 30 you are old and will likely never have kids or if you become a parent in anyway but a heterosexual marriage you are wrong and wasting your life.

4. You better be a SAHM or you're neglecting your kids

5. Men cannot be equal parents or partners and you really shouldn't expect that of them.

6. You're dirty if you have dated to have more than one sexual partner.


Reminiscent of my evangelical/ purity culture upbringing.

And you all should be well aware of the push to take America back for Jesus and that there's a huge effort to push these ideas online similar to election propaganda.

I'm sure op will deny it though.

The trend is definitely apparent. I don't know if it's just that a bunch of purity/Christian/trad people have found DCUM, or if it's some more nefarious thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't know why people divorced. People are embarrassed about being abused. They may not think it's your business. They may think it's in the best interest of their kids to not share what happened.

People have repeatedly said this doesn't apply in cases of abuse, end of story. It doesn't matter what I know. OP and others are making the argument that ABSENT any abuse, there is a strong argument for staying together "for the sake of the kids" so that your kids get the benefit of a two-parent, married household, which many studies have shown is ultimately better for the development of children. Sure, there may be exceptions. Exceptions make the rule. In most cases, the kids are probably better off if the parents find a way to work through non-abuse issues and stick it out at least until the kids are grown.

But what do you qualify as abuse? Obviously hitting, screaming, cursing, but what about the people who post that their spouse refuses to help around the house? Stays up until the early hours gaming and then won't lift a finger at home even though they both work? Do you think those people aren't trying to work it out? One side is, the other side doesn't care. And by the way, I'm not one of those people, but I feel for them.

I think the "just stick it out" posters would think that verbal abuse, screaming, and cursing can just be "talked out" with enough committment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many people on here are all "think of what you're role modeling for the children if you're not affectionate / don't love each other / are playing pleasant for the children!!!"

Yes ideally all children would have parents that are married, communicate well, love each other, model great boundaries etc etc etc. But the reality is that's a small % of marriages with young children

Do you divorce if you're not that b/c you're not role modelling an ideal marriage for the kids?

Well I just texted a mom about a playdate with her daughter this weekend. She said it's the dad's weekend. The dad said he's out of town but to text the step mom. The step mom said it sounded fun but she didn't feel like the drive and it might mess up her toddlers nap time so no thanks.

Is this devastating to their kid? No. I'm sure you could argue that its great for the girl to learn to compromise. But she has new babies in both families and those families are both oriented around their full time kids instead of adapting the baby into the existing (part time) kids needs. Lets not minimize the impact of new spouses and new kids and lots of competing priorities and hierarchies of importance on a kids life. That truly can be more damaging to kids than parents stay together as platonic roommates instead of romantic partners. When second marriages have an even higher divorce rate we think thats providing a better model?

And I say this as a person who wished her parents would divorce each other when I was in high school bc they so clearly hated each other and the tension was so high

I just want to go back to the OP that is saying that the "case for not divorcing" is this single kid who coldn't go to a playdate. OP knows jack-all about the reasons for the single divorce she's talking about. Just...one kid couldn't attend one play date. OP sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

But they do. This is what these people believe.
Please pay attention to the typed of threads being posted and posted repeatedly here 1. Get married and get married early.
2. Don't be too picky especially if you're a woman. Don't break up with a boy friend you might not get another chance.
3
If you marry over 30 you are old and will likely never have kids or if you become a parent in anyway but a heterosexual marriage you are wrong and wasting your life.

4. You better be a SAHM or you're neglecting your kids

5. Men cannot be equal parents or partners and you really shouldn't expect that of them.

6. You're dirty if you have dated to have more than one sexual partner.


Reminiscent of my evangelical/ purity culture upbringing.

And you all should be well aware of the push to take America back for Jesus and that there's a huge effort to push these ideas online similar to election propaganda.

I'm sure op will deny it though.

The trend is definitely apparent. I don't know if it's just that a bunch of purity/Christian/trad people have found DCUM, or if it's some more nefarious thing.

I don’t think it’s this. I think it’s a bunch of people who just don’t want to see women with financial and social independence (you’ll see how “you picked badly so live with it” is leveled at women all the time…) the Venn diagram with extreme right wing views isn’t a perfect circle— there’s also plenty of internalized misogyny in people who think they’re progressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't know why people divorced. People are embarrassed about being abused. They may not think it's your business. They may think it's in the best interest of their kids to not share what happened.

People have repeatedly said this doesn't apply in cases of abuse, end of story. It doesn't matter what I know. OP and others are making the argument that ABSENT any abuse, there is a strong argument for staying together "for the sake of the kids" so that your kids get the benefit of a two-parent, married household, which many studies have shown is ultimately better for the development of children. Sure, there may be exceptions. Exceptions make the rule. In most cases, the kids are probably better off if the parents find a way to work through non-abuse issues and stick it out at least until the kids are grown.

But what do you qualify as abuse? Obviously hitting, screaming, cursing, but what about the people who post that their spouse refuses to help around the house? Stays up until the early hours gaming and then won't lift a finger at home even though they both work? Do you think those people aren't trying to work it out? One side is, the other side doesn't care. And by the way, I'm not one of those people, but I feel for them.

I think the "just stick it out" posters would think that verbal abuse, screaming, and cursing can just be "talked out" with enough committment.

Every one of the “just work harder!” posts is written by someone it sounds like it would be absolute misery to be married to. I think they’re hoping their spouses read here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't know why people divorced. People are embarrassed about being abused. They may not think it's your business. They may think it's in the best interest of their kids to not share what happened.

People have repeatedly said this doesn't apply in cases of abuse, end of story. It doesn't matter what I know. OP and others are making the argument that ABSENT any abuse, there is a strong argument for staying together "for the sake of the kids" so that your kids get the benefit of a two-parent, married household, which many studies have shown is ultimately better for the development of children. Sure, there may be exceptions. Exceptions make the rule. In most cases, the kids are probably better off if the parents find a way to work through non-abuse issues and stick it out at least until the kids are grown.

But what do you qualify as abuse? Obviously hitting, screaming, cursing, but what about the people who post that their spouse refuses to help around the house? Stays up until the early hours gaming and then won't lift a finger at home even though they both work? Do you think those people aren't trying to work it out? One side is, the other side doesn't care. And by the way, I'm not one of those people, but I feel for them.

I think the "just stick it out" posters would think that verbal abuse, screaming, and cursing can just be "talked out" with enough committment.

Every one of the “just work harder!” posts is written by someone it sounds like it would be absolute misery to be married to. I think they’re hoping their spouses read here.

I think most people have said emotional abuse (screaming, cursing, serious name calling) is divorce worthy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why didn’t you drive her OP?

Personally I think remarrying and having babies when you have young kids is pretty tacky so I’m with you there.

Same. So trashy.

Quick, everyone stop living your lives because two losers on DCUM think it's "tacky and trashy."

BTW tacky and trashy are words you use when you're uneducated and haven't read enough to learn other, more descriptive words.

That’s not it. I have many other words. But, that is not how words work. Tacky and trashy are absolutely perfect here so one need not expand. The most educated people know that words should be precise.

One could say selfish, unfair, shortsighted, small, limited, stifling, sad. All would work.

And don’t forget “stupid”

I think it's stupid and limited and small to stay in a situation that is horrible for your mental and physical health under the guise that you're some kind of a martyr for your kids. If you want to stay married, by all means, have at it. To call the choices of other people all the names you listed when you have absolutely no idea what they are going through is the epitome of trashy and tacky.

Live your life. It’s all about you and your happiness. Kids be damned. You’re #1.

Like I said, fakey fake martyrdom is so much more noble. You do you.

NP
wtf is fakey fake martyrdom?

Staying married to a cereal cheater "for kid's sake" for example. Staying married to an alcoholic or a gambler, because you don't want kids to be from "a broken home." Your home is already broken, dear. You just don't have the guts to leave. That's the only difference.

Maybe your home but not mine. And it doesn't take guts to leave it takes guts to stay, ride the roller coaster, and work on issues. Leaving is the easy gutless thing to do.

Staying is easy. Leaving is hard. Cowards stay. And women who can’t support themselves. Many times, issues can’t be “worked out.”

You're so brave. Putting your needs first. Quitting is easy.

Don’t assume marriages are like yours. Some are horrific. That is your problem. Divorce is also logistically and financially difficult. People don’t divorce lightly. Staying married is much easier than coparenting. But it is worth it if the marriage is really bad. It is putting kids needs first as well. Abusive toxic marriages are far worse than ok divorces. I know—I grew up in one. It took me far too long to leave. 10 years. That is not “quitting”; I waited too long as it was.

Stop with your BS judgement. You have no clue what people endure.

[Anonymous]

I used to be much more of the "some people are better off divorced" mindset. But then I'm saw two divorced with kids very up close (my brother's marriage, and a close friend who came to stay with me for a time during the divorce). I think about it differently now.

I still think divorce is sometimes the least bad solution to a problem marriage. But I also think it's good, absent abuse of any kind, for it to truly be a last resort. At least if there are kids involved. I have also seen the difference between a divorce with really young kids (under 5) and with tweens. I went into it thinking the one with little kids would be less traumatic than the one with tweens. The opposite was true. The tweens were old enough to navigate it, articulate their needs, express their feelings (including justified anger with their parents). And the parents, to their credit, handled all that well, thanks to years of good relationships with their kids.

The divorce with kids under 5 I witnessed was absolutely devastating. Those kids are very messed up, their relationships with both parents are very messed up. That marriage was not great but I truly think they should have given it 5 more years and sucked it up. No abuse, just some immaturity and two strong personalities. Well immaturity and strong personalities also make for some crap co-parenting in divorce too.

Divorce needs to exist and I'm not judging people wo divorce. But it really can be absolutely wretched for kids. That should factor in to the decision. There are situations where I really do think parents need to just hunker down and ride out the marriage until they've gotten the kids to a place where divorce won't fundamentally undermine their kids forever. I just feel really, really bad for these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

My marriage isn't broken, loon. But I see the toll divorce takes on so many of my children's friends whose parents won't speak to each other, kids can't come to parties b/c it's mom or dad's time and they aren't allowed, or they miss games b/c of some schedule problem not to mention the new step siblings they hate. So fixed! Right?

No, they can’t come to your parties because their parents don’t want to deal with your judgmental a$$. What they say is just an excuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I used to be much more of the "some people are better off divorced" mindset. But then I'm saw two divorced with kids very up close (my brother's marriage, and a close friend who came to stay with me for a time during the divorce). I think about it differently now.

I still think divorce is sometimes the least bad solution to a problem marriage. But I also think it's good, absent abuse of any kind, for it to truly be a last resort. At least if there are kids involved. I have also seen the difference between a divorce with really young kids (under 5) and with tweens. I went into it thinking the one with little kids would be less traumatic than the one with tweens. The opposite was true. The tweens were old enough to navigate it, articulate their needs, express their feelings (including justified anger with their parents). And the parents, to their credit, handled all that well, thanks to years of good relationships with their kids.

The divorce with kids under 5 I witnessed was absolutely devastating. Those kids are very messed up, their relationships with both parents are very messed up. That marriage was not great but I truly think they should have given it 5 more years and sucked it up. No abuse, just some immaturity and two strong personalities. Well immaturity and strong personalities also make for some crap co-parenting in divorce too.

Divorce needs to exist and I'm not judging people wo divorce. But it really can be absolutely wretched for kids. That should factor in to the decision. There are situations where I really do think parents need to just hunker down and ride out the marriage until they've gotten the kids to a place where divorce won't fundamentally undermine their kids forever. I just feel really, really bad for these kids.

You witnessed one divorce. That does not indicate all divorcee are like that. Those kids have bad parents—it is not the divorce. Parents can control the outcome. I am divorced and my kids have zero issues: I also know several others that are similar with happy kids. I don’t know one divorce in which parents are toxic and don’t speak to each other. Those kids would have been screwed up no matter if they stayed married or divorce. It is the parenting…not marital status. My kids would have been very messed up if we stayed married… we did not speak or have any interaction in the house: it was very cold and toxic and they witnessed emotional abuse when there was talking. It is much better for them (and me) now. Divorce made our lives much better. They see both of us all the time (we are flexible with time). Our finances were not wrecked. College is still paid for. We never ate dinner together married. We sometimes go out for a family dinner now. We can be coparents but we could not stay married. I see more divorces like mine than terrible ones. Yes, it can be awful with bad parents, but this does not mean the divorce you saw is what divorce generally is. (Also, no remarriage or kids seeing dating in any divorce I know). I have been divorced for years. Divorce in the last 5 years is not the same as 20 or more years ago.

[Anonymous]

When there was cheating involved--I've never seen a healthy divorce with unaffected kids. The kids are messed up and go on in their own lives to cheat themselves in their marriages, have 'daddy' issues and poor coping skills. There are a lot of repressed mental issues because they don't want to upset their parents. If they knew a parent was cheating and their parent did not know the spouse was unfaithful--it's even rougher on the kid. They are caught in a twist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.

Part of healthy relationship modeling includes healthy co-parenting (i.e. no suitcases, a regular home, etc). If you’re miserable in your marriage your kid aren’t having a healthy childhood. If it can be fixed— fix it!— but you owe your kids better than wasted years. That’s my view from a happy and equal married relationship: the healthy divorces in our life are a lot better than some of the miserable marriages.

I don't encounter a ton of miserable marriage (at least not outwardly -- if they are unhappy, they are doing a good job of keeping it under wraps and their kids seem to be doing okay too). I sadly also don't see a lot of healthy divorces with young kids. People with no kids? Sure. People with older kids or kids out of the house? Also sure. Healthy divorces with kids under age 12 or so? I don't see them. I see a LOT of immature, embarrassing, hurtful-to-the-kids behavior. And that's just what I'm privy to as a friend of the family.

My kids were 5 and 8 when we divorced. I posted a long post about how we are much better off. You know people with bad parenting skills. People can have healthy divorces with kids under 12 and most people I know do. I also don’t know people who are outwardly nasty to the other parent. You know immature people and stereotyping divorce. I don’t think most parents at our kids Catholic school know where are divorced. We don’t correct them or tell them because of the stereotypes about divorce written here.