the case for not divorcing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why didn’t you drive her OP?

Personally I think remarrying and having babies when you have young kids is pretty tacky so I’m with you there.

Same. So trashy.

Quick, everyone stop living your lives because two losers on DCUM think it's "tacky and trashy."

BTW tacky and trashy are words you use when you're uneducated and haven't read enough to learn other, more descriptive words.

That’s not it. I have many other words. But, that is not how words work. Tacky and trashy are absolutely perfect here so one need not expand. The most educated people know that words should be precise.

One could say selfish, unfair, shortsighted, small, limited, stifling, sad. All would work.

And don’t forget “stupid”

I think it's stupid and limited and small to stay in a situation that is horrible for your mental and physical health under the guise that you're some kind of a martyr for your kids. If you want to stay married, by all means, have at it. To call the choices of other people all the names you listed when you have absolutely no idea what they are going through is the epitome of trashy and tacky.

Live your life. It’s all about you and your happiness. Kids be damned. You’re #1.

Like I said, fakey fake martyrdom is so much more noble. You do you.

NP
wtf is fakey fake martyrdom?

Staying married to a cereal cheater "for kid's sake" for example. Staying married to an alcoholic or a gambler, because you don't want kids to be from "a broken home." Your home is already broken, dear. You just don't have the guts to leave. That's the only difference.

Maybe your home but not mine. And it doesn't take guts to leave it takes guts to stay, ride the roller coaster, and work on issues. Leaving is the easy gutless thing to do.

Staying is easy. Leaving is hard. Cowards stay. And women who can’t support themselves. Many times, issues can’t be “worked out.”

You're so brave. Putting your needs first. Quitting is easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why didn’t you drive her OP?

Personally I think remarrying and having babies when you have young kids is pretty tacky so I’m with you there.

Same. So trashy.

Quick, everyone stop living your lives because two losers on DCUM think it's "tacky and trashy."

BTW tacky and trashy are words you use when you're uneducated and haven't read enough to learn other, more descriptive words.

That’s not it. I have many other words. But, that is not how words work. Tacky and trashy are absolutely perfect here so one need not expand. The most educated people know that words should be precise.

One could say selfish, unfair, shortsighted, small, limited, stifling, sad. All would work.

And don’t forget “stupid”

I think it's stupid and limited and small to stay in a situation that is horrible for your mental and physical health under the guise that you're some kind of a martyr for your kids. If you want to stay married, by all means, have at it. To call the choices of other people all the names you listed when you have absolutely no idea what they are going through is the epitome of trashy and tacky.

Live your life. It’s all about you and your happiness. Kids be damned. You’re #1.

Like I said, fakey fake martyrdom is so much more noble. You do you.

NP
wtf is fakey fake martyrdom?

Staying married to a cereal cheater "for kid's sake" for example. Staying married to an alcoholic or a gambler, because you don't want kids to be from "a broken home." Your home is already broken, dear. You just don't have the guts to leave. That's the only difference.

Maybe your home but not mine. And it doesn't take guts to leave it takes guts to stay, ride the roller coaster, and work on issues. Leaving is the easy gutless thing to do.

No in some cases it truly takes guts to leave. It’s like you’ve never heard of abuse. Are you dumb?

Oh but you didn't mention abuse now did you? The examples you DID mention can be worked through if you're made of strong enough stuff, don't give up so easily, and put in the effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when SHOULD you get divorced? Never? Never any reason ever?

domestic violence, ongoing infidelity, serious emotional abuse (not just arguments)

otherwise you work through it "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until parted by death."
remember those vows? all those clauses are in there for a reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

lol. So many people speaking out their buttholes about things they nothing about. Do you ever get bored being this incredibly judgmental?

I've been married for 20 years and know plenty. My parents had a highly dysfunctional marriage. I have two divorced siblings and one long married sibling. I'm not being judgmental, I know marriage is hard, but I truly believe that if you have children, you owe it TO THEM to try to make it work unless you are dealing with actual abuse in which case I hope you get the support you need to leave. The key here is that you have to *work* on it. The idea that your options are "put up with a crap marriage" or "divorce" is in itself a childish way of thinking about this. You had children with this person, sit down and try to hammer it out so it works. You owe your kids that, at a minimum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when SHOULD you get divorced? Never? Never any reason ever?

domestic violence, ongoing infidelity, serious emotional abuse (not just arguments)

otherwise you work through it "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until parted by death."
remember those vows? all those clauses are in there for a reason.

So now everyone gets married in your church? God you’re just self righteous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

lol. So many people speaking out their buttholes about things they nothing about. Do you ever get bored being this incredibly judgmental?

I've been married for 20 years and know plenty. My parents had a highly dysfunctional marriage. I have two divorced siblings and one long married sibling. I'm not being judgmental, I know marriage is hard, but I truly believe that if you have children, you owe it TO THEM to try to make it work unless you are dealing with actual abuse in which case I hope you get the support you need to leave. The key here is that you have to *work* on it. The idea that your options are "put up with a crap marriage" or "divorce" is in itself a childish way of thinking about this. You had children with this person, sit down and try to hammer it out so it works. You owe your kids that, at a minimum.

You are the best person. Better than your parents and siblings. Definitely let your entire family know how awesome you are and how much they are hurting your nieces/nephews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

lol. So many people speaking out their buttholes about things they nothing about. Do you ever get bored being this incredibly judgmental?

I've been married for 20 years and know plenty. My parents had a highly dysfunctional marriage. I have two divorced siblings and one long married sibling. I'm not being judgmental, I know marriage is hard, but I truly believe that if you have children, you owe it TO THEM to try to make it work unless you are dealing with actual abuse in which case I hope you get the support you need to leave. The key here is that you have to *work* on it. The idea that your options are "put up with a crap marriage" or "divorce" is in itself a childish way of thinking about this. You had children with this person, sit down and try to hammer it out so it works. You owe your kids that, at a minimum.

I’m a DP, but I think a lot of the people who think they’re “working on it” aren’t actually giving their children what they owe. There are people who have been in marital therapy for years. Years. A kid is home for 18 years, building memories for about 14-15 of those, if you spend 1/3-1/2 of their childhood so unhappy you needed professional intervention, do you really think you gave them the “best” upbringing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when SHOULD you get divorced? Never? Never any reason ever?

domestic violence, ongoing infidelity, serious emotional abuse (not just arguments)

otherwise you work through it "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until parted by death."
remember those vows? all those clauses are in there for a reason.

So now everyone gets married in your church? God you’re just self righteous.

those are pretty standard Courthouse wedding vows as well. What were yours? "I promise to love, honor and cherish you all the days of my life[u] until I don't?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

lol. So many people speaking out their buttholes about things they nothing about. Do you ever get bored being this incredibly judgmental?

I've been married for 20 years and know plenty. My parents had a highly dysfunctional marriage. I have two divorced siblings and one long married sibling. I'm not being judgmental, I know marriage is hard, but I truly believe that if you have children, you owe it TO THEM to try to make it work unless you are dealing with actual abuse in which case I hope you get the support you need to leave. The key here is that you have to *work* on it. The idea that your options are "put up with a crap marriage" or "divorce" is in itself a childish way of thinking about this. You had children with this person, sit down and try to hammer it out so it works. You owe your kids that, at a minimum.

I’m a DP, but I think a lot of the people who think they’re “working on it” aren’t actually giving their children what they owe. There are people who have been in marital therapy for years. Years. A kid is home for 18 years, building memories for about 14-15 of those, if you spend 1/3-1/2 of their childhood so unhappy you needed professional intervention, do you really think you gave them the “best” upbringing?

The alternative is shuttling between mom and dad's house like a nomad. This isn't best either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't know why people divorced. People are embarrassed about being abused. They may not think it's your business. They may think it's in the best interest of their kids to not share what happened.

This. We had a friend who left her husband “because of his drinking” which was well known and widely observed.

A few people preached to her about how she was abandoning him in an illness when she needed to be his support.

She later told a select few of us (the ones that didn’t drop her or preach to her) that every time he got drunk he beat her.

Be careful when you pass judgement. Pointing a finger points three back at you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ I should also note that I grew up in an abusive household where my parents didn't divorce and I've thought about this a lot and I don't think divorce would have helped me. It was going to suck either way (both parents were abusive and our family was very dysfunctional) but I think growing up with married parents and without the financial strain of a divorce spared me at least some extra trauma. I had to build my conception of what a healthy, functional relationship was from scratch as an adult anyway. At least I didn't also have to shuttle back and forth between two homes while trying to perform at school and have a social life, and at least my parents could not use custody or child support as a weapon in their ongoing dysfunction.

Had a similar childhood and agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t model for your children things you don’t expect them to tolerate.

Yes, but the point here is that some of the reasons people get divorced are actually things we DO expect kids to tolerate. Boredom is part of life. Long-term relationships with anyone require dealing with annoyances, reconciling different goals and needs, working through conflicts to remember what you liked about them in the first place.

Abuse is a hard line for me, and not just physical abuse-- verbal or emotional abuse, or abusive patterns of gaslighting and undermining that really mess with a person psychologically. You don't want to expose your kid to any of that.

But often people get divorced because they "grew apart" or "want different things" or one or both think they *might* be happier with someone else. And if you don't have kids or your kids are grown? Why not, to for it. But those are really not good reasons to throw out a family and force children into joint custody arrangements. Divorce also has an annoying ability to create continual conflict in families, because the second you split, the parents are now in competition with each other for time with kids, time without kids, resources, etc.

If there is not abuse, be a freaking grown up and figure out how to do what is best for the kids. Most divorced compromise the kids' well being. I'll allow that some small percent manage a cordial divorce with minimal impact on kids (live near each other, co-parent well, no custody or support arguments). Most don't.

I don’t think abuse is the only thing you should show your kids you’ll tolerate. I think high conflict marriage isn’t something we should show kids we’ll tolerate. A spouse freeloading off the other and expecting to be waited on. I’m happily married, but I’m not raising my daughter to believe she has to pick up a grown man’s socks.

Well there's nuance here. With better communication and problem-solving skills, a high-conflict relationship can be made more functional. Wouldn't it be better for kids if parents put the effort in to address their conflict, and resolve them at least well enough to keep the family together, then to say "ugh we fight all the time, I guess we have to split up." As though fighting all the time is something you have no control over.

Sure there might be relationships where the conflict is truly caused by just one person, and they absolutely will not change. But most of the time, it takes two to tango. Work on it.

Similar thing with freeloading. My DH sometimes freeloads. I call it out. We talk it through. He gets better. Our kids learn that you can speak up when you are in a relationship with someone who tries to take advantage of you or freeload off your hard work. They also learn that if your partner says "hey, this is not working for me, I don't like being expected to clean up after you," they can take that as the constructive criticism it is and do better.

Again, in some extreme cases you might have a person who can't talk it through and adjust, and in that case it might make more sense to divorce. But I'm also betting that the person who refuses to clean up after themselves AND is incapable of listening to a partner who asks them to try, is probably an abusive partner anyway.

So we're back to: unless there is abuse, your kids are probably better off if you can find a way to work it out, even if it doesn't perfectly maximize your individual happiness.

There’s less nuance than you seem to think. Yes if marriages can be improved in the relatively short term (not years, because by that point you’ve already wrecked your children’s childhood and given them warped ideas about healthy relationships) you might be well served to do it.

On the other hand, again, I’m not raising my kids to think you tolerate high conflict or freeloading or laziness. “Improving” it for years and years is just tolerating it by a different name. You’ve decided to tolerate your husbands freeloading, which is a choice you can make for yourself and your kids, but isn’t a choice you can make for someone else.

You're also teaching your kids that when the going gets tough, get going. People want to screech about academic rigor, resilience, and grit in their children making them standouts, but don't exactly model that themselves.

Except if you read what I said, I don’t say get going. I say if things can be improved in the short term, it’s worth it to try. But no I wouldn’t counsel my children to waste their lives or their children’s lives tolerating poor treatment so they could give themselves a gold participation badge.

Ok but don't go on and on about modeling healthy relationships as being the utmost importance when you turn around and offer the kids a crap alternative like having no regular home and living out of a suitcase that goes back and forth because you couldn't figure out how to divide household labor. You obviously win, but the kids aren't better off.