Can't stand the racist comments, what to do next time?

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[Post New]07/19/2009 12:55
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm of the opinion that it's your husband's responsibility to handle his own parents, particularly if they are saying inappropriate things in front of the kids. Take this concern to him. THat relationship should be his to manage, and you have a MUCH better chance of making a difference if it comes from him. If it were your own parents, I'd say that you had to take it head on.


This is the poster with the racist father. I don't think I would agree with this. While maybe the one-time conversation with parents should be OP's husband's responsibility, (or a shared conversation) it sounds like these comments are recurring. When we visit our in-laws, I'm often with them alone. I think racist statements that are being made in front of one's child must be corrected immediately and, whether uncomfortable or not, mom will have to do it even with her in-laws. I know if my father made a comment in front of my child and I was not around, my husband would say something like easy with that or just address the kid and say something, whatever seems right at the time. My husband's parents are not racist at all, but if they said something goofy in front of our kids and it was something I felt strongly enough about, I'd probably gently correct at the time too. Again, this depends on what it is, but I think you don't want stuff being said in front of the kids. They wonder why you aren't more consistent in your beliefs if you don't say something immediately.



I'm PP. What I'm saying is that the husband needs to put his foot down and issue an ultimatum that makes clear that there will not be another opportunity to make such a comment in front of the kids unless it does not cease immediately. Dad, we're not visiting anymore and you're not seeing us either unless this stops permanently. One comment and you're in the penalty box until we hear a sincere apology and then we will allow you back under supervision. You will recant these comments to the kids and explain why it is the wrong thing to say or you cannot be with us. Period.

There's no sense in the mother saying no each time it happens. You have to shut it down. And you can't shut it down with ongoing "don't say that."
[Post New]07/19/2009 17:37
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm of the opinion that it's your husband's responsibility to handle his own parents, particularly if they are saying inappropriate things in front of the kids. Take this concern to him. THat relationship should be his to manage, and you have a MUCH better chance of making a difference if it comes from him. If it were your own parents, I'd say that you had to take it head on.


This is the poster with the racist father. I don't think I would agree with this. While maybe the one-time conversation with parents should be OP's husband's responsibility, (or a shared conversation) it sounds like these comments are recurring. When we visit our in-laws, I'm often with them alone. I think racist statements that are being made in front of one's child must be corrected immediately and, whether uncomfortable or not, mom will have to do it even with her in-laws. I know if my father made a comment in front of my child and I was not around, my husband would say something like easy with that or just address the kid and say something, whatever seems right at the time. My husband's parents are not racist at all, but if they said something goofy in front of our kids and it was something I felt strongly enough about, I'd probably gently correct at the time too. Again, this depends on what it is, but I think you don't want stuff being said in front of the kids. They wonder why you aren't more consistent in your beliefs if you don't say something immediately.



I'm PP. What I'm saying is that the husband needs to put his foot down and issue an ultimatum that makes clear that there will not be another opportunity to make such a comment in front of the kids unless it does not cease immediately. Dad, we're not visiting anymore and you're not seeing us either unless this stops permanently. One comment and you're in the penalty box until we hear a sincere apology and then we will allow you back under supervision. You will recant these comments to the kids and explain why it is the wrong thing to say or you cannot be with us. Period.

There's no sense in the mother saying no each time it happens. You have to shut it down. And you can't shut it down with ongoing "don't say that."


PP with racist dad. I understand and agree in theory. But that's quite a gauntlet to throw down. While in theory I think you're 100 percent right (not just in theory but in practice, in every way, the comments are unacceptable and they should be told as much) the problem is that this is DC's grandparents. I'm going to go out on a limb, since OP is torn, that her kids love them and the grandparents love the kids. I'm going to guess from some of the things she's said that they are not 100 percent bad people (so few of us are really all "good" or all "bad."). The problem is that you can't necessarily change people.

Of course, you can ask them to change their behavior, but I'm not sure an ultimatum is going to be effective in this case. What happens if they get offended and balk at it? Is OP really expected to deny her children grandparents and vice versa because the grandparents in question are flawed human beings?

If I would have told my father I wasn't going to visit until his racism stopped, he would have taken personal offense, rather than wising up and realizing it was his fault. While it might feel good to have that moral high ground, the net effect would be to lose a father, not to change someone's racism. My dad never thought he was wrong to feel the way he felt and he would have thought it was wrong of me to tell him to censor himself, especially in his own home. To be clear, that didn't mean that I didn't repeatedly ask him not to say things like that in front of me, but I also accepted that I wasn't going to change him.

While I thnk you have the moral high ground on your side, the approach you are suggesting is very heavy-handed. Were this neighbors, or more distant family members, I might agree with that approach, but these are the child's grandparents and most grandparents are not likely to easily change decades worth of behavior they think is perfectly acceptable. It's not that I don't think that would be the ideal, I just think an ultimatum has to be something you're willing to back up. If OP feels so strongly about racism that she'd deny access to grandparents, maybe that's the best move. But I think it would be just as effective to have the discussion and then continue to call it on the mat when she sees racism rear its head.
[Post New]07/20/2009 09:22
Anonymous
OP, this is a tough one. I am so proud of you for wanting to stand up on this issue! I think it's so important for us as parents to not only convey our beliefs in theory to our kids, but for them to see us in action. Now that you have a child who is seeing and hearing everything that goes on around you, it is so important that you demonstrate not only your committment to the priciples of fairness and respect for all people, but also ASSERTIVENESS too. A willingness to do something "uncomfortable" when the issue is important. This is an esp. critical lesson for girls.

First, your husband should address it with them privately. He should explain that their statements - and he should be specific about which statements - go against HIS beliefs and what HE is trying to teach his child. He should explain that if this happens again, your family will leave. And you won't be back.

If/when it happens again in front of your child, you both should respond calmly, "We're going to have to leave now, as we discussed these comments and attitudes are not acceptable to us". And leave.

When your child is old enough, you should explain to her that it makes you very sad that you don't spend more time with grandma and grandpa, but they are "not nice" to some people. And that it's important in your family to be nice to all people. That it makes you especially sad when people like grandma and grandpa are mean to people just because they have brown skin. Ask your child how she would feel if someone was mean to her just because she had green eyes, or brown hair. That you don't like to be around people who are mean and that as a mom, you don't like to let your child be around people who are mean. So you made a decision to not spend a lot of time with grandma and grandpa until they can learn to be nice to ALL people.

If you are religious, you might want to talk about how, just like flowers, God made people in all different colors, shapes, sizes etc. and God loves all her children, and all their beautiful colors. etc. etc.

If you want your child to continue to have a relationship with them, see them in "neutral" territory, on your turf, or best of all, in public places. You should continue to respond calmly but directly to their inappropriate statements and remove your child from their presence if they start up again. Let her see that you are serious about rejecting their comments.

It will be much harder to do all this if you are a guest in THEIR home. So I would stop visiting there for a while.

Good luck OP.
[Post New]07/20/2009 12:09
Anonymous
OP, I think your statement:


seemed like they were born and raised in the South


is very bigoted. I am from the South, and can tell you that having traveled the US and internationally, that racism is EVERYWHERE. The most racist person I have ever met in my life is from PA. How are you any different that they are, discriminating based upon geography?
[Post New]07/20/2009 17:11
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:OP, I think your statement:


seemed like they were born and raised in the South


is very bigoted. I am from the South, and can tell you that having traveled the US and internationally, that racism is EVERYWHERE. The most racist person I have ever met in my life is from PA. How are you any different that they are, discriminating based upon geography?


I'm the poster with the racist dad. We're from Pennsylvania. I can tell you that racism in Pennsylvania, especially in Southwestern PA (remember Congressman Murtha's comments) and the so-called mid state bible belt are among the most racist areas in the United States. This is changing, but it's changing slowly.

My husband is from the South, and there is a lot of racism there, too. You may be right that racism is everywhere, but there are some places where, I'm sorry to say, you just know you will run into it.
[Post New]07/20/2009 17:20
Anonymous
This kind of discussion should be one of the things listed on that stuff white people like website --- examining/discsusing/wallowing in quandry present when a relative/friend/co-worker says something racist...lol!!!
[Post New]07/20/2009 17:24
Anonymous
As a black American, I cannot understand why so many white people pretend or genuinely believe that racism no longer exists or is truly not a factor, when this other (less vocal) group of white people acknowledge continually how many other white people disparge and display prejudice against peoples different from themselves.



[Post New]07/21/2009 07:56
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:As a black American, I cannot understand why so many white people pretend or genuinely believe that racism no longer exists or is truly not a factor, when this other (less vocal) group of white people acknowledge continually how many other white people disparge and display prejudice against peoples different from themselves.





Of course you are right. No one should pretend it's not a factor. But to keep it in perspective, this group of white people seems to occasionally encounter this. It's not prevalent in our social circles. The OP is talking about one set of relatives. I don't have any relatives who are like this. Most posters are adamantly against this kind of ugliness. The general trend in society seems to be, this problem is getting much, much better. Think how far we've come from the relatively recent experience of Jim Crow and Civil Rights confrontations to a popularly elected black president. Not a panacea! But an indicator of the overall improvement on this issue in this country.

I guess I take exception to your use of the word "continually". It's more occasional, even for this group of white people. That still doesn't make it OK, obviously.

And all people can be prejudiced. Check out the post in "Gay and Lesbian Parents" about the older black lady in Giant who berated a lesbian mom.....
[Post New]07/21/2009 08:41
Anonymous
I tell my kids that grandma is from a time when everyone thought it was ok to be unfair to people because of their skin color. I tell them, we love grandma, but we don't agree with her. I told them there was a time when people thought the earth was flat and witchcraft was real. Along with racism, they are mentalities based on ignorance.

I know there is no changing my grandma, but I take comfort I can guide my kids away from that mentality. And I smile when my oldest responds, "But Grandma, what if I didn't like you because of the color of your skin? That doesn't feel good, does it? Didn't you read the Constitution, Grandma? It says right there, we are all equal!" She shuts up after that.
[Post New]07/21/2009 09:52
maynie
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:I tell my kids that grandma is from a time when everyone thought it was ok to be unfair to people because of their skin color. I tell them, we love grandma, but we don't agree with her. I told them there was a time when people thought the earth was flat and witchcraft was real. Along with racism, they are mentalities based on ignorance.

I know there is no changing my grandma, but I take comfort I can guide my kids away from that mentality. And I smile when my oldest responds, "But Grandma, what if I didn't like you because of the color of your skin? That doesn't feel good, does it? Didn't you read the Constitution, Grandma? It says right there, we are all equal!" She shuts up after that.


That is so great. How old are your kids?
[Post New]07/21/2009 10:34
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As a black American, I cannot understand why so many white people pretend or genuinely believe that racism no longer exists or is truly not a factor, when this other (less vocal) group of white people acknowledge continually how many other white people disparge and display prejudice against peoples different from themselves.





Of course you are right. No one should pretend it's not a factor. But to keep it in perspective, this group of white people seems to occasionally encounter this. It's not prevalent in our social circles. The OP is talking about one set of relatives. I don't have any relatives who are like this. Most posters are adamantly against this kind of ugliness. The general trend in society seems to be, this problem is getting much, much better. Think how far we've come from the relatively recent experience of Jim Crow and Civil Rights confrontations to a popularly elected black president. Not a panacea! But an indicator of the overall improvement on this issue in this country.

I guess I take exception to your use of the word "continually". It's more occasional, even for this group of white people. That still doesn't make it OK, obviously.

And all people can be prejudiced. Check out the post in "Gay and Lesbian Parents" about the older black lady in Giant who berated a lesbian mom.....



Not OP, just another white person (one with racist dad / grandma). Perhaps because racism IS predominant in my family, I think this reply, talking about how far we've come, is a little bit naive. I think the real issue is that folks like PP quoted above don't see overt racism like the racism in my family. But that doesn't mean it is not still happening. Sure the days where our society bandies about the N word are diminishing (but not completely over) but so many of us, having the comfortable position of being a white American, simply cannot fathom how deeply the more subtle forms of racism exist and how it can weave itself into the fabric of a black person's life. Even with my racist dad, it wasn't until I made more friends of different races and cultures and became close enough with them to hear their stories that I really understood what racism meant. I am reminded of the story of Barack and Michelle Obama. When they were dating, they didn't want to be "the black couple" at the law firm. Why? Because people would have made silent judgments about that. Positive, negative, or patronizing, people make judgments all of the time, and those judgments have this additional lens of "they're black."

Anyway, to the black American above, not all white people are oblivious, and some of us are trying hard to make racism something of the past. This takes a lot harder work than most people think. It is not enough just to never say or hold racist views or to correct them when they do (obviously, important, but not enough). I personally think one has to strive to make and keep meaningful connections with people of all walks of life and colors and to raise our children to do the same. If the only black people your children know are the ones they encounter in the grocery store, or the "lady from mommy's office" and not "mommy and daddy's friends so and so and so and so," then they may intuit a difference between them and the black children they encounter at school.

I remember a friend joking around (purely joking) that she had a racist cat. It is true that the cat would run and hide under the bed anytime a black person would come to the house. But it wasn't funny, becuase the reason that the animal behaved that way was because its owner did not have any black friends. It wasn't used to that. Even though animals aren't consciously racist, it's a sad reflection on the way we might be accidentally raising our children, who may be capable of reacting in similar ways. Just my 2 cents...
[Post New]07/21/2009 10:45
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
I remember a friend joking around (purely joking) that she had a racist cat. It is true that the cat would run and hide under the bed anytime a black person would come to the house. But it wasn't funny, becuase the reason that the animal behaved that way was because its owner did not have any black friends. It wasn't used to that. Even though animals aren't consciously racist, it's a sad reflection on the way we might be accidentally raising our children, who may be capable of reacting in similar ways. Just my 2 cents...


So if a person doesn't have black friends they are racist, or conveying a racist message to their children through acts of omission?
[Post New]07/21/2009 10:49
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I remember a friend joking around (purely joking) that she had a racist cat. It is true that the cat would run and hide under the bed anytime a black person would come to the house. But it wasn't funny, becuase the reason that the animal behaved that way was because its owner did not have any black friends. It wasn't used to that. Even though animals aren't consciously racist, it's a sad reflection on the way we might be accidentally raising our children, who may be capable of reacting in similar ways. Just my 2 cents...


So if a person doesn't have black friends they are racist, or conveying a racist message to their children through acts of omission?


Don't know, frankly. I'm sure some folks who do not have black friends are racist and some are not racist, but I wouldn't personally say they're doing much to eradicate racism and are perhaps a little bit complicit. I didn't say they were racist, I just said that it is not enough not to say racist things. If you care about ending racism, branch out. If you prefer to stock your little goldfish bowl with identical fish, what can you say you're doing about racism?
[Post New]07/21/2009 12:04
Anonymous
i would argue that having black friends just to be able to show you're not racist is, in fact, discriminatory-- you are seeking them out because they are black. so so many white people i know who rant the most about "racism" and who try to surround themselves with black friends are only doing it to make themselves feel more enlightened and to pat themselves on the back for being so diverse. it seems condescending and pandering to me.

i'm very curious about the comments OP thinks are racist -- i'm not doubting that they could be, just haven't read any examples.
[Post New]07/21/2009 17:55
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:i would argue that having black friends just to be able to show you're not racist is, in fact, discriminatory-- you are seeking them out because they are black. so so many white people i know who rant the most about "racism" and who try to surround themselves with black friends are only doing it to make themselves feel more enlightened and to pat themselves on the back for being so diverse. it seems condescending and pandering to me.

i'm very curious about the comments OP thinks are racist -- i'm not doubting that they could be, just haven't read any examples.


Oh brohter.

Let's get a few things straight. First off, I don't "rant" about racism. Second, I don't give a shit about your opinion of my motives, because you're wrong about them. And your post makes you sound like an utter dimwit, to boot. So, probably not worth a reply, but here goes anyway:

if you are content with your social circle, bully for you. But let's call a spade a spade -- people who talk up and down about how they're not racist and never encounter racism nor would ever allow a racist comment to be said, yet find themselves swimming around in a very white sea might benefit from examining their social circle and asking themselves why they do not have many non-white friends.

I can see how my post might seem disengenious. Sure, admitting that one deliberately set out to cultivate black friends (or other more diverse friends) can trigger skeptism, especially from the jerks on this board. But the fact is, we were genuinely unsettled by what our social circle said about us. Not to other people but to US. Why weren't we friends with more black people? The surface answer seemed easy: neither my husband nor I work with any black people, nor did we have many black friends of friends. We weren't meeting people naturally. Then I realized how ludicrous that really was. We had a black next door neighbor and a white next door neighbor and we had dinner with the white folks twice yet never got beyond saying "hi" to the black neighbors. Why? Not sure. To be fair, the white neighbors asked US to hang out. Yet, why wouldn't we do the same with our black neighbors? I guess it just never occurred to us. And I'm freely admitting this. This is not patting myself on the back, this is admitting a huge flaw. So our attempts at broadening our social circle were not some bullshit thing to do to make us feel or look better, it was something we did after some self-examination. And I think the truth is, MOST white people are probably just like we used to be. All talk about how racism is a scourbe but only one or two black friends out of the bunch. That is called thinking about things and realizing that maybe we were missing the boat on something. That is about me thinking about my childhood, when I wasn't "allowed" to have black friends, and wondering if, despite all of my offense at my dad's more overt racism, I wasn't practicing a little bit of unintended racism myself.

So screw you for telling me that I'm false for going out and trying to change that. There's nothing wrong with what I did, it's just that most people wouldn't admit that they did it on purpose. Is that what is so offensive?

And by the way, are you really suggesting that the only reason a person might want to broaden her social circle is including black people in it ONLY in order to be self-congratulatory? In that case, you really ARE a racist.

Now I'm fired up, so I feel like throwing down this challenge. How many of the supposedly non-racist white folks on this board would be willing to be the only white family in a 2 mile radius (and I'm talking about a nice neighborhood here, just predominantly black). How many of you supposedly non-racists would REALLY be comfortable if your daughter brought home a black boyfriend? I know that everyone here will just say "oh yes, we would be fine with that" but in your heart of hearts, many of you would NOT.

I suspect PP above would not. Yet it's so easy to sit back in your anonymous position and take shots at me and my approach to friendships. It's easier to say I'm a phony than it is for you to admit that, even if you're not racist, you are still culturally LAZY and provincial.

As far as patting myself on the back, as I understand it this forum is designed to be an exchange of ideas. I think I am doing something right, and I believe in it. I do not want my kids to grow up with some skewed sense of race because the only black people they encountered were outside the home, outside our social circle. On an earlier thread on race on DCUM, someone was saying her daughter didn't like black people because she associates the doctor, who is black, with black people. This poster thought there was nothing wrong with that. Well, I'm telling you there IS something wrong with that. If you have a kid who only knows black people from a distance, it is YOUR FAULT.

This forum actually offers a rare format for being really up front about huge issues like racism, and I would appreciate any thoughtful replies to my post. But I hope this negative nitwit spares me her boring reply. Sorry for the long reply, but I feel like I said something genuine and some jerk just peed all over it.
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